RHDR 4-8-2 from Annie

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Flying15

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In the G16 thread I mentioned my next project to build an RHDR4-8-2 based on Samson
I thought I’d post a few progress pictures to show how it’s going
The boiler is from a mixture of 80mm Perspex tube, rainwater pipe and plasticard
The chimney and Dome were from Walsall model engineering intended for a gauge 3 black 5
The chimney I think will need reducing in height
2C1E0ACF-76E4-447E-B114-7D4EC615CDBC.jpeg
 

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ntpntpntp

ntpntpntp

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RH&DR is local to me, I had summer jobs on there for a few years back in the late 70s and early 80s. Looking forward to seeing your progress :)
 
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g-bits

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Barring the cab, it also has something of the feel of one of the earlier (small wheeled) SAR 4-8-2's in reboilered form, say the class 3R with the massive roundtop boiler.

(Shots of rebuilt locos at the bottom of the page)

I take it you don't have any route-restricting R1 curves?..

Jonathan
g-bits.co.uk
 
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Flying15

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Barring the cab, it also has something of the feel of one of the earlier (small wheeled) SAR 4-8-2's in reboilered form, say the class 3R with the massive roundtop boiler.

(Shots of rebuilt locos at the bottom of the page)

I take it you don't have any route-restricting R1 curves?..

Jonathan
g-bits.co.uk
Hi Jonathan
The plan is that it ll be good for 4’/1.2m radius curves
The third driver will become flangeless so I suppose some might say that it is effectively a long 4-4-2
A key issue at less than 4’ radius would be the flangeless drivers on any slightly uneven track might cause derailments
A bit like the reason BR 9Fs aren’t allowed on network rail tracks
Clearly the other is end throw which given the loco is just over 20” long is both a loading gauge matter and a visual distraction given the cab end and tender are supposed to be in alignment
On the SAR loco I rather like that period of British export locos
I might have a look in the future at similar Indian Metre gauge types to run on the Indian show layout I have “Sagor”
Below is a YP I made , that I think might have been better as a 2-8-2 WP
Never know whAt the future might hold EB99AF26-0D75-4649-9C5F-FCFDA79785BD.jpeg EB99AF26-0D75-4649-9C5F-FCFDA79785BD.jpeg
 

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g-bits

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Flangeless wheels needing to stay at least partly over the rail is something, like flange grab, that seems to get forgotten in a few models. That said, all those real southern African 4-8-0's and similar with blind LEADING coupled wheels, albeit often with extra wide steamroller treads, always worried me a bit more. Though they seem to have worked ok enough at the speeds required.

I've always thought the YP and YG were attractive locos, nicely balanced visually like some of the Malaysian pacific's. A pity the YL 2-6-2 isn't so pretty. I've got s feeling that somewhere, possibly a semi-private line in Burma/Myanmar, had chunkier metre gauge 2-6-2's that looked like a shortened YD mikado, but I can't even find any pictures, so maybe not. Mechanism wise, I've seen *somewhere* an Annie cut down to a short wheelbase block by using new frames and coupling rods, but everything else more or less stock, with the con rod now connected to the third axle and the first and second squashed up to fit between that cylinders. If you can do that, it also ought to be possible to add another axle on the back to make a close coupled 2-8-x, but it'd be a lot of work, and not for the faint-hearted.

Jonathan
g-bits.co.uk
 
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philg

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Flangeless wheels needing to stay at least partly over the rail is something, like flange grab, that seems to get forgotten in a few models. That said, all those real southern African 4-8-0's and similar with blind LEADING coupled wheels, albeit often with extra wide steamroller treads, always worried me a bit more. Though they seem to have worked ok enough at the speeds required.

I've always thought the YP and YG were attractive locos, nicely balanced visually like some of the Malaysian pacific's. A pity the YL 2-6-2 isn't so pretty. I've got s feeling that somewhere, possibly a semi-private line in Burma/Myanmar, had chunkier metre gauge 2-6-2's that looked like a shortened YD mikado, but I can't even find any pictures, so maybe not. Mechanism wise, I've seen *somewhere* an Annie cut down to a short wheelbase block by using new frames and coupling rods, but everything else more or less stock, with the con rod now connected to the third axle and the first and second squashed up to fit between that cylinders. If you can do that, it also ought to be possible to add another axle on the back to make a close coupled 2-8-x, but it'd be a lot of work, and not for the faint-hearted.

Jonathan
g-bits.co.uk
The "shortened YD" locomotives are on the North Borneo Railway, which has three of them built as late as 1955. These were the last steam locomotives built by Vulcan Foundry. There has been a steam tourist service here, but I think they have struggled to keep a servicable loco in recent years.
This link describes the operation in some detail and the history of the locomotives.
 
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g-bits

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The "shortened YD" locomotives are on the North Borneo Railway, which has three of them built as late as 1955. These were the last steam locomotives built by Vulcan Foundry. There has been a steam tourist service here, but I think they have struggled to keep a servicable loco in recent years.
This link describes the operation in some detail and the history of the locomotives.

Thank you. Once I knew where, it was rather easier to look them up...

They were even the colour I had remembered them in my mind's eye. Some more info here.
Vulcan Foundry Locomotive List with Photographs (3rd entry)
Given they're metre gauge with 4ft wheels (=54mm&change in 1/22.5) on 8'10" wheelbase even a massively modified Annie isn't ideal. Could model the loco in 1/24 maybe, but that might leave it looking a bit weedy next to anything bigger t. 1/22.5 body on top of 1/24 wheels? Who said "rubber ruler?"

I think the Vulcan Foundry drawings mostly wound up in the NRM, though I don't know how complete/accessible they are. Or even how open the NRM/ search engine are at present. I shall have to send an email or two.

Thanks again,

Jonathan
g-bits.co.uk
 
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Flying15

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Thank you. Once I knew where, it was rather easier to look them up...

They were even the colour I had remembered them in my mind's eye. Some more info here.
Vulcan Foundry Locomotive List with Photographs (3rd entry)
Given they're metre gauge with 4ft wheels (=54mm&change in 1/22.5) on 8'10" wheelbase even a massively modified Annie isn't ideal. Could model the loco in 1/24 maybe, but that might leave it looking a bit weedy next to anything bigger t. 1/22.5 body on top of 1/24 wheels? Who said "rubber ruler?"

I think the Vulcan Foundry drawings mostly wound up in the NRM, though I don't know how complete/accessible they are. Or even how open the NRM/ search engine are at present. I shall have to send an email or two.

Thanks again,

Jonathan
g-bits.co.uk
Hi Jonathan
I hadn’t come across this type
I had been searching following your earlier reply without success, 37594E76-F862-436D-8FF6-37F70D9C9662.jpeg but you’ve led me to an image
It looks very model able but the drive is to the third axle
Not insurmountable
I guess the other issues you allude to are a matter of just how much one might be willing to compromise
Definitely one for me to give some serious thought to
Again Thanks
Chris
 
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g-bits

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Hi Jonathan
I hadn’t come across this type
I had been searching following your earlier reply without success, View attachment 271289 but you’ve led me to an i

Sorry about that - I'd managed to remember that they were on a line isolated from the main system, but not that that was in Malaysia apparently. Possibly because I mentally associate Malay expresses with poppet valve three cylinder pacifics.

Their YD heritage is interesting, I don't think any YD's, or even related classes, ran in Malaysia, so the commonality was presumably for the benefit of Vulcan (who had build quite a few YD previously) in producing a derivative design quickly/cheaply, rather than the railway, who were going to wind up with a class of three anyway.

It looks very model able but the drive is to the third axle
Not insurmountable
I guess the other issues you allude to are a matter of just how much one might be willing to compromise

This I think is doable by shortening the wheelbase - the existing valve gear etc can then be relocated to the third axle, bring the cylinders up to, but clear of the leading driver. All at the cost of new frames and coupling rods. I've seen it done, but not attempted it myself. As yet, at least.

In terms of size, I've got a gut feeling that the IR metre gauge loading gauge is generally 11'3" tall, though obviously these aren't IR locos, so might not comply, they're probably a bit more complicated than just a YD with fur and a bit feet slicing out of the middle. If 11'3" is right, puts them at 143mm tall in 1/24th, which is probably a little too small compared to other G scale stock to give the right impression. WIth will be 8ftsomething, so probably OK anyway. The equivalent in 1/22.5 is a touch under 152mm (same height as the 1095 diesel), which smell more right, though possibly they'd then be a bit wide.

I should probably try an get some drawings.

Definitely one for me to give some serious thought to
Again Thanks
Chris

"Dear Mr Fifteen,

"Please stop modelling all the locos I've got my eye on.

"Agrieved,

"Tyneside"

. . .

Does your flyingfifteen name by any chance related to a certain Rhodesian/Zimbabwean locomotive type? That's on my list too.

Jonathan
g-bits.co.uk
 
F

Flying15

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Hi Jonathan
I hadn’t come across this type
I had been searching following your earlier reply without success, View attachment 271289 but you’ve led me to an image
It looks very model able but the drive is to the third axle
Not insurmountable
I guess the other issues you allude to are a matter of just how much one might be willing to compromise
Definitely one for me to give some serious thought to
Again Thanks
Chris
By the way I’ve a hunch it may have been one of these locos that appeared fleetingly in the very early episodes of the 2015 TV series set in the times of the demise of the risk -Indian Summers
Sorry about that - I'd managed to remember that they were on a line isolated from the main system, but not that that was in Malaysia apparently. Possibly because I mentally associate Malay expresses with poppet valve three cylinder pacifics.

Their YD heritage is interesting, I don't think any YD's, or even related classes, ran in Malaysia, so the commonality was presumably for the benefit of Vulcan (who had build quite a few YD previously) in producing a derivative design quickly/cheaply, rather than the railway, who were going to wind up with a class of three anyway.



This I think is doable by shortening the wheelbase - the existing valve gear etc can then be relocated to the third axle, bring the cylinders up to, but clear of the leading driver. All at the cost of new frames and coupling rods. I've seen it done, but not attempted it myself. As yet, at least.

In terms of size, I've got a gut feeling that the IR metre gauge loading gauge is generally 11'3" tall, though obviously these aren't IR locos, so might not comply, they're probably a bit more complicated than just a YD with fur and a bit feet slicing out of the middle. If 11'3" is right, puts them at 143mm tall in 1/24th, which is probably a little too small compared to other G scale stock to give the right impression. WIth will be 8ftsomething, so probably OK anyway. The equivalent in 1/22.5 is a touch under 152mm (same height as the 1095 diesel), which smell more right, though possibly they'd then be a bit wide.

I should probably try an get some drawings.



"Dear Mr Fifteen,

"Please stop modelling all the locos I've got my eye on.

"Agrieved,

"Tyneside"

. . .

Does your flyingfifteen name by any chance related to a certain Rhodesian/Zimbabwean locomotive type? That's on my list too.

Jonathan
g-bits.co.uk
Re Flying 15
Yes I built a loose model of one about 5/6 years ago
I ll try and locate some images of it
It’s built on two Bachmann Annie chassis
I haven’t run it much as I think I need to do some changes particularly to the cylinders
It was one of my earlier Bachmann G scale efforts
 
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philg

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This looks like a gratuitous excuse to upload a picture of one of these fine machines. This is blue-liveried 419 on the weekly Bulawayo-Mafikeng passenger on July 19th 1990. Not only was this train still steam-hauled at this late date, it still had a clerestory dining car. It's not my best shot of one of these engines but the low angle on the wheels does illustrate why they're such a headache to model in our scales. The wheels are 4'9" (60mm at 1:24) and the coupled wheelbase is only 10'6" which means that with G scale standards, such as they are, the flanges would be touching. The same is probably true between the innermost drivers and the carrying wheels. Of course, even at 1:24 the finished thing is 45 inches long ! Still, we can but dream.........

S17176rd.jpg
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
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Tamworth, Staffs.
:eek::eek: Wow! :eek::eek:

Even if LGB did it.. It would never go round R1's! :rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
F

Flying15

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This looks like a gratuitous excuse to upload a picture of one of these fine machines. This is blue-liveried 419 on the weekly Bulawayo-Mafikeng passenger on July 19th 1990. Not only was this train still steam-hauled at this late date, it still had a clerestory dining car. It's not my best shot of one of these engines but the low angle on the wheels does illustrate why they're such a headache to model in our scales. The wheels are 4'9" (60mm at 1:24) and the coupled wheelbase is only 10'6" which means that with G scale standards, such as they are, the flanges would be touching. The same is probably true between the innermost drivers and the carrying wheels. Of course, even at 1:24 the finished thing is 45 inches long ! Still, we can but dream.........

View attachment 271440
Absolutely great shot and the road sign adds much character.
I guess the issue is how accurately you wish to portray a prototype or rather compromise to use standard/available parts to create something which inevitably is a talking point, as few others will have attempted such a model, or be familiar with its detail.
I admit to being a tad impatient and have a long list of ‘likenesses’ I’d like to create so I probably compromise quite(too?) often
I think I see G/large scale as at the fun end of my interests/activities
Perversely I tend to reserve my rivet accountancy to smaller scales!
Chris
 
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philg

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Chris and PhilP, thank you for the kind comments about my photo. That was a really excellent trip ; we saw all the Garratt classes working plus the 19D at Hwange. I absolutely agree about compromising. I was getting tired of the conformity in 4mm modelling, but here in the garden I'm my own CME ! My models are freelance but based on real prototypes and highly plausible, and as you say, tend to make the most of the mechanisms and parts available. I still want a Garratt though! The Chief Civil Engineer, a post also occupied by me, has created a nice set of reverse curves that such an engine would suit admirably. I have some ideas on how to go about it, but don't hold your breath. At the rate I work it would probably be quicker to build a real one.
 
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Flying15

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Chris and PhilP, thank you for the kind comments about my photo. That was a really excellent trip ; we saw all the Garratt classes working plus the 19D at Hwange. I absolutely agree about compromising. I was getting tired of the conformity in 4mm modelling, but here in the garden I'm my own CME ! My models are freelance but based on real prototypes and highly plausible, and as you say, tend to make the most of the mechanisms and parts available. I still want a Garratt though! The Chief Civil Engineer, a post also occupied by me, has created a nice set of reverse curves that such an engine would suit admirably. I have some ideas on how to go about it, but don't hold your breath. At the rate I work it would probably be quicker to build a real one.
I did say I’d post some pics of the loose replica 15 I built a while back
It’s shown running on a friends garden line
It’s based on two Annie chassis as I mentioned previously
On the day the second truck decided to come apart so it’s shown running as a 4-6-2+4-6-4
I must get it out of its box and re shape the cylinder blocks !!!!
It happily goes around 4’ radius curves
45459217-A911-4A43-92CB-DB15EEF86E7C.jpeg E73E84D3-70DE-413B-BA8F-83B56018B685.jpeg 45459217-A911-4A43-92CB-DB15EEF86E7C.jpeg E73E84D3-70DE-413B-BA8F-83B56018B685.jpeg
 
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philg

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I did say I’d post some pics of the loose replica 15 I built a while back
It’s shown running on a friends garden line
It’s based on two Annie chassis as I mentioned previously
On the day the second truck decided to come apart so it’s shown running as a 4-6-2+4-6-4
I must get it out of its box and re shape the cylinder blocks !!!!
It happily goes around 4’ radius curves
View attachment 271664 View attachment 271665 View attachment 271664 View attachment 271665
Now that looks like the business ! How did you make the tank shape ? - and what running number does she carry ? Respect !
Phil
 
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g-bits

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Nicely done. The undersized Bachmann Annie drivers are a lot less noticeable than I might have guessed too.

Jonathan
g-bits.co.uk
 
Tropic Blunder1

Tropic Blunder1

Jake
That looks awesome! Very refreshing to see a Garratt bash that isnt just the body parts of the donor locos chopped up and glued back on with a massive gap under the boiler. I have the parts and plans to one day build a SAR 400 class Garratt on two annie mechs which will need some chassies lengthening the same as Samson. Some very inspiring builds here.
 
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Flying15

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Now that looks like the business ! How did you make the tank shape ? - and what running number does she carry ? Respect !
Phil
Hi
The running number is 398 I think the loco that found its way to New Zealand
Here are some very rough sketches of the tanks construction
Inspired by model aircraft methods although not balsa but a combination of Styrene and plastic tubes to form a framework or skeleton and thin styrene sheet for the skin
Hope that helps DDA9B615-0F9D-495D-BBFD-1D1E7B67290F.jpeg 1E729215-D296-498E-88B9-4A9EFA71FBC8.jpeg DDA9B615-0F9D-495D-BBFD-1D1E7B67290F.jpeg
 
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philg

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Thank you for the explanatory diagrams - I've built a Belpaire firebox using more or less this technique but that's a much less complicated structure than the streamlined tank. I must take a closer look at model aircraft techniques. I believe you are right about 398 being in New Zealand - I have seen a YouTube video of it being unloaded there. Whether it will ever run is another matter - there have been issues with South African locos there because of wheel standards i think. Now where have I heard that before. They should have asked a railway modeller. Hope you like the attached picture ! - Phil

NRZ398_1.jpg