Question about powering the line ?

[idlemarvel]

It is one if my problem I don't know how to change CV's

The "how to" depends on your command station, in your case an MTS III. I don't have one of those so perhaps someone who does can provide step by step advice if you are having trouble interpreting the manual.

 

[idlemarvel]

Not here in the states... not on digitrax, qsi, tcs, nce decoders.

I also have not found this true on Zimo or Soundtraxx decoders.

What decoders have you found this true on?



Greg

The on board LGB decoder in my latest LGB acquisition (24520) has max speed CV5 set to 200 as supplied and if you do a reset.

 

[stockers]

Not here in the states... not on digitrax, qsi, tcs, nce decoders.

I also have not found this true on Zimo or Soundtraxx decoders.

What decoders have you found this true on?



Greg

Its not the decoder, but the installation set up.
Seen it on Zimo, MFX and Massoth.
Do those decoders you list have a back EMF/Constant speed/load control function - and does it work if already near top speed? I suspect not.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Yes they all have BEMF, and have not checked the BEMF operation at 200 scale miles per hour, which is what they normally run at top speed...

(I speed match all my locos to smph = speed step in 128 ss mode.)

Not trying to be argumentative, but from the factory, never seen a decoder with Vmax anything other than "wide open"... sure, if you buy a sound file and install it in a Zimo, often all kinds of settings are changed.

Interesting about the latest LGB...

Also, I have never seen a decoder come from the factory with BEMF settings for "constant speed"... only load compensation intended for better/smoother operation.

What you say does indeed make sense from the theoretical point of view, if you have Vmax wide open, then at maximum speed, it makes sense that at full speed, if BEMF called for a bit more, it would not be there... of course to use an automotive analogy, if you are going flat out, then there's no more period, that's the idea of flat out.

I would wager no one is looking for BEMF at full speed, and I hope no one is running their trains at full track voltage!

Greg

 

[stockers]

Just following the Massoth manual Greg.

 

[Paul M]

I bet they never had this problem with clockwork

 

[stockers]

It all depends on what spring you are using!

 

[PhilP]

It all depends on what spring you are using!

Now you are just winding us up!

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Didn't mean to draw this out so long. I get that Massoth does this... but seems the exception rather than the rule.

I interpreted your first post on this to mean that in the world of DCC this is pretty standard, and it seems that Massoth pretty much stands alone.

Since I speed match my locos, and no loco is matched to over about 110 smph, I've always got plenty of "headroom" for BEMF even at 100 miles per hour.

Sorry again for the derailment.

Greg

 

[Gizzy]

I bet they never had this problem with clockwork

Oh yus!

Someone lost the key....

 

[Wilco]

At the connection, it's not the thickness of the metal, but the surface area for conduction.

The Theil joiners have a huge surface contact area compared to other joiners, thus should be excellent in terms of electrical resistance... as long as the bolts are tight and dirt does not get in.

Yes with ANY joining system you lose some power at each joiner, no matter what type, including soldered joints. So this statement is a "red herring", what is important is the resistance of the joint after assembly.

By the way, when clean and oxide free, nickel is a worse conductor than brass. This is not as simple as metal type, it's the method of fastening, the resistance to oxidation and keeping the connection tight and contaminate free.

Greg

Well Greg,

I don't like to distract you, but I mentioned my own experience with the Thiel railjoiners. Which was confirmed by an article in Garten Bahn Profi.

For resistance two parameters are important:
- length
- profile surface
- (material)

The Thiel rail joiners:
- two thin plates; very low profile
- not stabile enough moving sideways

Massoth rail clamps
- One thick profile; the same surface profile as the rail.
- Stabile in both directions

At the joint of the rails count:
- profile surface
- good connection

This is best measured with analogue voltage, where the voltage and the current varies.
And you can see a train slowing down at the far end of the layout.
The digital voltage is a constant one and the current varies.
Furthermore the load compensation of the decoder can mess things up.

Groeten,
Wilco

 

[Wilco]

As I'm still new with G-scale, I have a question about something really annoying me for months now. Why my locos are so slow ?
I have a LGB MTS III, about 52 meters ( 170ft) of nickel track who I think would regulate the problem of energy loss but don't.
Could you explain me what to do in order to see my train going faster ( I'm not looking for something going as fast as TGV lol) and pull more wagons ? Could it be my LGB system not powerfull enough or not working well? Do I have to change it ? Been looking for Massoth but it is extremely more expensive any other way a bit cheaper maybe ?

Thanks a lot for all your answer

Paul

Hi Paul,

Back to your original question.
There are several questions to be answered.

Speed
You could try a smaller track oval as a reference.
Just measure the length, the speed setting and time
And compare that to your 52 meters layout.

Voltage
LGB MTS has only app. 18 Volt if powered with a LGB transformer
So your power is less than a Massoth central system at 22 Volt.

Controller
What controler are you using: the LGB Handy?
You might try the Massoth handy, it fits on your MTS3.

Decoders
20121 DB V100; Märklin MFX/DCC Decoder
22412 RhB Tm 91; Märklin MFX/DCC Decoder
Piko BR 260; Massoth XL
The easy part is to reset the decoder to the factory settings.
Try the Massoth one first. The Märklin MFX/DCC decoders are more complicated to program.

Programming CV's
You can program CV's with your MTS 3.
But you can't read CV's with it.
Therefore you can use a Massoth PC Module with a power supply.
Massoth has a convenient DCC programmer: Massoth Service Tool
Unfortunately it has no template for the Märklin MFX/DCC decoders.

Central station:
Alternative: Piko Central station with Massoth handy
You can always upgrade to the Massoth central station afterwards.

So there is a lot to be explored for your orginal question.

Groeten,
Wilco

 

[stockers]

OR
Just stick them together, attach a wire and run the damn thing.
Simples!

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Wilco, I was talking electrical conductvity only.

You are mentioning that because they are thin, they are not strong laterally, I believe that.

But the thickness has little to do with the resistance of the joint, it's the surface area. Over a long distance truly the thickness of the metal will have an effect, but your problem at a joint is not metal thickness, but the actual resistance at the joining surfaces.

So, I don't have these myself, but often a thinner piece of metal will have more ability to conform to a surface when clamped.

Now as to how well it works, and if it does not match the web of the rail, then I would agree, the chances for a better conducting joint are higher.

All of this is theory and speculation, as you end, the only true data is the physical test.

But analog vs digital makes no sense, it does NOT matter the power, it matters how you measure the voltage drop due to the resistance.

It is MUCH easier to use a static, non-changing, steady state load at the "far end" and measure voltage drop across the joint.

I use a box that provides a constant 8 amp load at 24 volts:

Those are 100 watt resistors I had laying around in a series-parallel configuration to get the right resistance.

A friend found 24 volt bulbs (used in boats) and made one himself a bit more cheaply:

With this nice static load, you can measure volts (usually millivolts) on each side of an individual joiner and quickly determine where the problem lies.

Greg