Programming Funktionmapping on MFX dekoder in factory installed LGB loco without a CS3 central station

palmerston

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Ive searched the net for a programmingtool and hardware for Funktionmapping on MFX dekoder in factory installed LGB loco as i dont have a CS3. Found none. ESU Lokprogrammer can only set Funktionmapping on the dekoders they supply themselfs.

Marklin has a programmingtool 60971 which is a USB device with software to set Funktionmapping and CV's (while not connected to a Central station) for their Nachrustdekoder mSD3/mLD3 only? It doesnt seem to be possible for factory installed dekoders???
 
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idlemarvel

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What command station do you have? Is that not capable of reading and writing CVs?
 

palmerston

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Funktionmapping needs to set a lot more cv's then one. Its easiest to do this via software which also calculates the values to be used and you can set multiple conditions.
 

idlemarvel

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Understood. It would be easier with a specific software tool. Do you know what the factory installed decoders are if not mSD3 / mLD3? I have in the dim and distant past successfully programmed LGB locos with factory fitted mfx decoders, using mSD3 documentation, including function mapping, with a standard command station and it seemed to work although it wasn't easy I grant you. But it may be newer LGB models use a different factory fitted decoder.

Someone on here may be able to help but have you also tried the maerklin user forum?
 

phils2um

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This LGB document may be helpful depending on what generation the multi-protocol decoder is. https://www.lgb.com/fileadmin/media/lgb/service/Decoder_Zusatzanleitung_mSD3.pdf. This booklet has been included with all the most recent LGB locos with 32 function sound decoders. It provides somewhat cryptic instructions for function mapping plus includes an example that may be helpful. As long as the loco was last operated on a DCC system (so the decoder is expecting the DCC protocol) you should be able to change the CVs using any DCC programming device on a programming track.

The tables on pages 12 and 13 might possibly work with the previous generation of 16 function multi-protocol sound decoders as suggested by Dave above. The CVs that need programming in the earlier 27 pin mLGB 16 function decoders are likely accessed differently from those in the current 32 function decoders. I gleaned this from comparing the manual for my approximately 5 year old LGB 24450, Ge 2/4 which has a 16 function decoder to that for my 22040 Ge 4/4 I with 32 function decoder.

Also, there appears to be a lot of descriptive information missing from the manuals. For instance, the mapping of each function button in the 16 function decoder has 4 CVs for each loco direction, forward or reverse. It seems the first CV for each function button determines what physical decoder outputs, front lights, rear lights, Aux1, ..., Aux6 are activated. The value programmed (0-255) is a bitwise switch that can turn on any combination of the eight physical outputs. I'm guessing the second CV (again 0-255) is for sounds, as there appear to be eight distinct "sounds". Not sure what the other two CVs are for, maybe related to running or stopped.


Edit added: There is a table at the back of the loco manuals with MLGB 16 function multi-protocol sound decoders. The table shows what goes in the four CVs that determine what each function button does in the forward and reverse loco direction. These CVs control what physical decoder outputs (front lights, rear lights, Aux 1, ..., Aux6), logical decoder functions (e.g. BEMF on/off, etc.), and sound slots are activated. Each CV is a bitwise switch controlling 8 items. So, with four CVs, 32 different items in any combination can be controlled per button in each direction.
 
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palmerston

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My Massoth PC module can read the CV's but some have a wrong value, if rereading they show up a different value. ex: the speed steps table showed some very odd numbers!! hence i noticed. Esu Lokprogrammer cant read beyond the standard cv's.
Marklin states that the decoder should be taken out of the loco to perform programming with their 60971 - LGB55129 board. If in the loco only CS3 would be able to change settings (mfx). Of course cv setting can be done by some DCC central stations but not all, my Uhlenbrock/KM1 cant read any cv's on the program or main track while a power buffer is connected??. Hence i thried the Massoth PC module. So i have a Marklin 60971 and LGB55129 on order will keep posting. Maybe setting lots of CV's with possible faults is the only way.
 

idlemarvel

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Not being able to read/write CV when power buffer is connected is a problem common to all command stations AFAIK. Hence you should always make DCC power buffers switchable. If you do remove the decoder to program it, you will need to connect it to a motor to provide some load before you connect to the programming track otherwise you will get unreliable read/write values.
 

palmerston

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Yep, i know. The powerbuffer LGB 55429 was already fitted by the factory. Have you seen its very thin cables and very tiny connector?! Even the smallest temperature controlled soldering iron (Weller station) (have done SMD soldering and smaller) will melt the isolation. According to Marklins documentation a load in the setup outside the loco is is not needed. All in all Marklin-LGB doesnt want you to change any CV's without using their Central Station. Not yet...

Actually what i need is software which handles Funktionmapping and produces a list of CV's to change with its values as i started this topic for.

lgb-55429-nachruest-energiespeicher-decoder-spur-g.jpg

Remove the shrink-wrap and solder thicker wires on, but in the end you will have to connect to the tiny connector.
 
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Wow, just read the manual, so you store the definitions in "lines", i.e. you essentially program in a flexible data structure, and the system "parses" the "lines" to know what to do.

i'd agree, for most people you would not want to do this manually, but an automated program.

While the flexibility is nice, doing this way is a real pain. Can you edit a specific "line" later? (meaning you don't have to re-enter all the other "lines")

Greg
 

phils2um

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Wow, just read the manual, so you store the definitions in "lines", i.e. you essentially program in a flexible data structure, and the system "parses" the "lines" to know what to do.
This is only with the newest 32 function MLGB decoders. If I'm not mistaken, this is how the current ESU decoders (since V4.0?) work also.

Function mapping in the previous generation of 16 function MLGB decoders is done as I have indicated in my edit to Post 5. Check pages 40-41 of this manual for the function mapping table. https://static.maerklin.de/damcontent/61/14/6114fc8b6c0fd07cdf74a456da1b3c1f1567514837.pdf

The powerbuffer LGB 55429 was already fitted by the factory
I believe this power buffer is one that has buffer control and can be left attached during programming with no problems. (Thats what the other two wires are for.)

What generation of MLGB decoder are you trying to program?
 
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palmerston

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I believe this power buffer is one that has buffer control and can be left attached during programming with no problems. (Thats what the other two wires are for.)

What generation of MLGB decoder are you trying to program?
Yes, this is why the Massoth PC module can read cv while the loco is on the prgrammingtrack. Have to wait until sound goes to nill and lights go out.

Dont know, will check MLGB decoder once i have openend up the loco, its 32 function for sure. I also have an older MLGB loco 23591 which also needs to be programmed for the Uncouplers but that will be in the future.
 
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phils2um

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Can you edit a specific "line" later? (meaning you don't have to re-enter all the other "lines")
Yes, (Note: Must set CV31=17 and CV32=0) See the first step of the "Procedure" on page 11 (english) of the manual:https://www.lgb.com/fileadmin/media/lgb/service/Decoder_Zusatzanleitung_mSD3.pdf

I have not tried this but will experiment with it this weekend using my LGB 22040 Ge 4/4 I (contains the latest MLGB 32 function decoder) as a guinea pig and my Massoth PC module. I should be able to easily do a factory reset using my CS3 if I really screw it up!o_Oo_Oo_O
 

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Ive searched the net for a programmingtool and hardware for Funktionmapping on MFX dekoder in factory installed LGB loco as i dont have a CS3. Found none. ESU Lokprogrammer can only set Funktionmapping on the dekoders they supply themselfs.

Marklin has a programmingtool 60971 which is a USB device with software to set Funktionmapping and CV's (while not connected to a Central station) for their Nachrustdekoder mSD3/mLD3 only? It doesnt seem to be possible for factory installed dekoders???
You can use the Marklin 60657 Mobile Station to not only Read & Write CVs and Re-mapping Functions along with operating one locomotive in mfx control (power supply is only 1.8 amps). As an LGB Dealer I also carry some Marklin items. But none of the Marklin DCC tools, the CS3+, the Decoder Tool3, or the Mobile Station only can Read and Write CVs and some Re-mapping of Functions, on factory-installed MSD3 mfx/dcc/analog sound decoders because the Marklin/LGB locks the decoders! So on factory-installed decoders, you can't install a different sound file or make major adjustments to the factory sounds configurations (e.g., change whistle sound). Don't ask me why, I don't know other than guessing they're afraid hobbyists will mess them up and then request warranty support! I you want to install a new sound file, make changes to the sound configurations, then you must buy the LGB 55029 Retrofit MSD3 mfx/dcc/analog Sound Board and replace it for the factory-installed board. Then you can make any adjustments you want. A Marklin rep told me that Marklin may change this policy for their factory-installed decoders but so far they haven't.


Marklin 60657 Mobile Station-My Website Listing.pngMarklin 60971 Decoder Tool3 - My Website.png
 
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palmerston

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I dont want to change or replace any of the factory soundfiles. Just the functionmapping with multiple sounds and aux connections. Have a 60971 and LGB 55129 on order so will see. The command station maybe a very cheap alternative. I only run 1 or 2 two motor loco's at a time so its powerfull enough. Have some problems with up-and down slope which maybe important to solve my problem, hence funktionmapping.

This 60657 can be bought new for less then 2hand! A 60114 digital anschlussbox is needed about 56€ with CS2 60657 85€ INCL. FREE SHIPPING

This MS doesnt seem to have the functionality which a programmer has for funktionmapping.
 
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phils2um

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I spent about 4 hours today fiddling with CV programming on my LGB 22040 Ge 4/4 I which has the newest MLGB factory installed sound decoder. These are the steps I took. I had been running this loco using the mfx protocol with a Märklin CS3 central station.
1. I added a new DCC loco with address 3 and 29 functions, which is the most allowed for a DCC loco on the CS3, to the CS3 roster. Address 3 is the DCC default for the 22040 loco.
2. I turned off the mfx protocol on the CS3.
3. I operated the 22040 using DCC address 3 with the CS3. This included a check of functions. All worked as expected.
All the above were done using the normal track output of the CS3. Presumably this prepared the decoder to expect DCC operation and programming.

4. I then set up my Massoth PC module by opening up a "new" decoder. I selected the emotion XLS >v3.5 template just to have something to work with.
5. With the loco on the Massoth programming track, I opened the interface which powered the programming track.
6. All the subsequent CV read and writes were done using the single CV option beginning with a read of CV29. The correct value 6 was returned.
7. I wrote the values 17 and 0 into CVs 31 and 32 to enable "Mapping assignment" as per the decoder "Additional Information... " manual.
8. I read CV 257 which returned the value 54 indicating 54 of the 80 function mapping lines were occupied.
9. next I wrote 53 into CV33, then read CVs 34, 35, and 36 just to see what line 53 had for "Activator", "Stipulations", and "Output". These came back as "F20" button (20), "without level" (64), and the logical operator "and 1" (162). I've no clue what "without level" or the "and 1" logical operator do in this context. (For info the "F20" button turns off the normally on rear lights relative to the direction of loco travel.)
10. I then tried adding a simple function to one the of the locos unused function buttons, "F24".
11. I wrote the values 24 ("F24" button) into CV 34, 0 (no stipulation) into CV35, 177 (sound1, the horn) into CV36 then 55 into CV37 which wrote the settings into previously unoccupied function mapping line 55.
12. I then closed the Massoth PC Module interface to the programming track and reconnected the track with loco to my CS3 (still set for DCC protocol only).
13. I checked operation of the loco. Everything seemed OK and indeed the previously unused "F24" button now triggered the horn.

So far all seems as expected from the scant information available in the Märklin manuals included with the loco.

I then tried to undo what I'd just programmed into function mapping line 55 using the Massoth PC Programming Module. All I accomplished was to cause the horn to sound when the lights were turned ono_O! I realize now that I only succeeded in changing the "Activator" for function mapping line 55 I had created to the "F0" (light)button. There are no clear, at least to me, instructions on how to delete a function mapping line with DCC programming. There is no way to insert null values into CVs or otherwise void the line.

I was able to fix what I had done using my CS3 and the mfx protocol Loco Edit pages. I edited the "Light" button's action by deleting the horn which now showed up in the previously empty "Sound" field of the button's configuration.

I looked at the loco CVs I had changed once more using the Massoth PC module. The CS3 did seem to have put the CVs be back to what they were when I first began.
I then looked at what was in first four function mapping lines to see if I could make heads or tails of what was happening with the "Activators", "Stipulations", and "Outputs". The only one that made sense to me was the fourth line I looked at. It was a simple, straight forward mapping similar to the line 55 I had added above - the "F2" button turns "brake squealing off".

What I learned from this exercise -

First and foremost a lot more information needs to be made available by Märklin in order to effectively access the extensive capabilities of these latest MLGB sound decoders. At least in the english language. Maybe it is out there in German. There are no instructions or examples of what the logical operators "and 1" through "and 16", "or 1" through "or 8", and "Xor 1" through "Xor 4" do in the decoder's function mapping environment. Likewise, there is no explanation of what the Flip Flops 1 through 4 do. There is no clear method to delete a line from the 80 available once it is created.

Secondly, I would highly recommend using the Märklin Programming Tool, a Märklin CS3, or waiting until JMRI has a decoder template for the latest MLGB sound decoder if you want to do any modifications to the decoder function mapping.
 
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palmerston

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Hello Phil, thank you for sharing this. I have the programming tool on order, and will report. Have three MFX dekoders which need funktionmapping for the uncouplers.
 

palmerston

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Funktionmapping/Programming a dekoder physically outside a loco, as is necessary for the 60971 -LGB 55129 programming tool, will be convenient initially. The next step is to test the settings, for which the dekoder has to be fitted in the loco. If the settings need to be adjusted then you will have to remove the dekoder again....NOT convenient......an CS3 would be necessary to fix or change settings which brings us to the subject i started this topic for.

ESU has similar funktionmapping capabilities and they are the inventers of mfx and still support this protocol., they say. Alltough thier Lokprogrammer doesnt support third party hardware. ....as MLGB is.(tried/tested!) .The ESU Lokprogrammer can also act as a central station so you can test your settings directly on the programming track.

So... if Marklin gives their mfx protocol free for 3th partys to use, then ESU could update their Lokprogrammer with little effort. But that would mean inundating their support department with questions that cost them nothing but money. Or they are willing to invest to dominate the world in the field of “control systems for model trains”. Their revenue comes from selling their hardware so exchanging other branded dekoders for theirs is what they prefer.

So it would be best if someone would write software with all the functionalities like the ESU decoders, Kupplungswalzer, funktionmapping etc. which produces a list of CVs with every change. That person must then be completely independent of a decoder manufactorer. Only then will everyone be able to buy another (read cheaper) central station and/or handheld (Marklin doesn't have that at the moment. Massoth was developing one for Marklin (based on the Navigator) but they stopped doing that) for use in the garden.
 

palmerston

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phils2um

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One thing I really wish Märklin would do is provide a table of the default settings for the "Activators", "Stipulations", and "Outputs" for each loco with the new decoders. This might help us Luddites decipher what is going on in the function mapping.
 

palmerston

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I have JMRI installed and it lists under LGB : MFX 27-pin sound decoder. This template has basic CV only.

The Trix Modellbahn mSD3 dekodertemplate has the possiblities for functionmapping so this would be the best for settings if the dekoder is fitted in the loco.
 
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