Peco v Tenmille v LGB v Piko v Aristo v ??? trackwork?

[ge_rik]

I've been following the various posts on Peco, Piko and LGB R3 pointwork with interest. It seems to me that none of them is perfect.

When I first started this hobby, the general advice seemed to be that Peco was OK but LGB was better - because it was more robust, presented a broader profile to the wheels and hence was better for electrical conductivity and besides, Peco points deteriorated over time. I eventually opted for LGB pointwork as standard, with a mix of LGB, Tenmille and Aristo track (whatever I could buy cheapest as I built the railway).

Although I've had no problem with compatibility when joining LGB, Tenmille and Aristo, I'm beginning to wish I had opted for Peco from the start. Quite apart from the cheaper cost, I think their rail profile looks more prototypical for the UK than the others, and LGB R3s are proving to be quite unreliable in terms of electrical circuitry. I found the screws on Aristo points rusted in our climate, so abandoned those. I have recently bought some Piko R5s, but it sounds as if they are equally unreliable in the longer term.

I think, if someone asked my advice on what trackwork to opt for now, I'd be inclined to recommend Peco, particularly with the rising cost of brass.

The only concern I would have is over electrical continuity between rail and wheel. What's the general consensus on this - and what do you think are the relative merits of various trackwork for you?

Rik

 

[Gizzy]

What is the exact nature of the prolem with the LGB R3s?

If it is the moving point blade continuity, then it's easily cured by soldering a bridging wire to the rest of the blade (that becomes the check rail next to the frog).

I brought a 2nd hand R3 point that had been repaired this way, and it has worked reliably since I've had it....

 

[Tim Brien]

At the outset I went for Aristo stainless rail. It has been down nearly eight years with no problems. The Aristo wide-radius (ten foot diameter) 'points' required some serious tuning before installation, but to date have been very reliable. When starting out in largescale many years ago, I used the LGB set track rail with R1 points. Upon deciding on a permanent railway, I decided the shortcomings of the LGB R1 philosophy were not going to dampen my enthusiasm. I went for stainless rail in minimum ten foot diameter curves with a mix of wide-radius and #6 switches (points). I have over forty switches (points) all electrified with LGB switch machines. On the #6's the switch machine throws the frog polarity.

 

[ge_rik]

What is the exact nature of the prolem with the LGB R3s?
If it is the moving point blade continuity, then it's easily cured by soldering a bridging wire to the rest of the blade (that becomes the check rail next to the frog).

Yes - I've found, after a couple of years, the conductivity between both the stock rail and check rail, and the check rail and the blade (switch rail) breaks down and so requires four additional wires to be soldered. It seems to be a flaw in the design. Surely we should expect something which is designed for outdoor use to not require remediation after only a couple of years' use? I've had similar problems with R1s - though to a lesser extent.

But then, it seems as if no one has designed pointwork which is up to the job.

Rik

 

[whatlep]

What is the exact nature of the prolem with the LGB R3s?
If it is the moving point blade continuity, then it's easily cured by soldering a bridging wire to the rest of the blade (that becomes the check rail next to the frog).

Yes - I've found, after a couple of years, the conductivity between both the stock rail and check rail, and the check rail and the blade (switch rail) breaks down and so requires four additional wires to be soldered.

At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, have you cleaned the small metal bars across which the switch rails slide? They gradually get crudded up, dramatically reducing the power supply to the switch rails. I use a small piece of the material LGB/Massoth use in thier track cleaning pads.

On a different tack, you might want to read my review of the Train Line point motor before buying one. Although OK so far on my line, they have some fairly major differences to LGB/Piko motors and significant limitations.

 

[The Devonian]

All my trackwork, which has been laid at ground level for the last six years, is Aristo brass (Code 332).
I have never encountered conductivity issues with the track - only the power to track connectors on a couple of occasions due to them having been moved slightly (maybe by my dogs )
I have not encountered any rusted Aristo track screws either. I can only concur with others about the durability of the larger Code track - especially with humans and animals who often overlook the laid track. As I run coal trains predominantly I feel the Code 332 is well justified. (see later para. of this post.)
I have no experience of LGB products but am surprised that they have caused problems as many here speak well of that product.
A feature not always taken into account, when discussing appearance of various makes of track, is the use to which the railroad is supposed to portray. If you model a backwater or light railway then the smaller Codes will look fine but if you are into the larger, heavy trains - such as many of us modeling American railroads then the Code 332 is, in my view. more appropriate. This factor was brought to my attention at a recent 1:1 Heritage Railway week-end. The permanent way guys had a display of their machinery and implements used in the railways maintenance. Amongst the exhibits were many types of rail: some of the early types not used in the UK for many a year and three used within the last 50 to 100 years. The smaller, 60lb. or 90 lb. (which might equate to the Code 250) and a 115lb. which when making a web height comparison did justify the use of Code 332. Class 1 American railroads ( those seen in 'You Tube' hauling very long 100+ cars) use rail weights of 125lb. and above these days. Maybe someone familiar with present day UK railways can provide relevant data.

 

[Gizzy]

What is the exact nature of the prolem with the LGB R3s?
If it is the moving point blade continuity, then it's easily cured by soldering a bridging wire to the rest of the blade (that becomes the check rail next to the frog).

Yes - I've found, after a couple of years, the conductivity between both the stock rail and check rail, and the check rail and the blade (switch rail) breaks down and so requires four additional wires to be soldered. It seems to be a flaw in the design. Surely we should expect something which is designed for outdoor use to not require remediation after only a couple of years' use? I've had similar problems with R1s - though to a lesser extent.

But then, it seems as if no one has designed pointwork which is up to the job.

Rik

I think we have to accept that the outdoor garden enviroment can be quite harsh, and that some maintainance or repair for points will be inevitable.

I can only speak from experience with LGB points, and generally, I find that the design is robust and repairable. I have a quite few (mainly R1) points on my layout, a lot of them secondhand. I've had to repair the odd one or three during my 12 years operation, but I haven't as yet had to scrap one as it is beyond repair.

Peco have the well documented skate issue, although this can be resolved by a simple fix to the locos. A little annoying though. They look more realistic and to scale with code 250 rail, but they certainly aren't as robust as those using code 332 IMHO, and they need to be fixed to a board. However, I know some who use them and are happy although none run LGB powered stock AFAIK.

I've seen other makes which have virtually disintegrated after time on other layouts, but I couldn't comment as to how or why this has happened.

I've read here about the Piko points, and many have reported problems, but then other forum members so far have not. I personally probably wouldn't consider buying these though, especially given Piko's reluctance to address these complaints from our members.

The Trainline points look sound, but again, as a new product like Piko, we may see in the future some issues. I haven't heard any problems with them so far, and I would consider them in the future if they prove to be reliable in the longer term.

I guess at the moment, I personally would stick with LGB, and preferably pre Maerklin points, if I was to buy anymore, but that's just my own view....

 

[ge_rik]

However if your considering an extension Trainline/LGB seem to be the only ones worthy of consideration, and possibly Trainline being the best option especially with the built in decoder/point motor if your going to use digital.

Just looked up Trainline on the Glendale website. They look interesting. I like the idea of R2 rather than R1 though I'm trying to standardise on R3s. Yes - it says the frog can be electrictrified - but assume that will require some sort of switching.

As I'm now too far down the LGB route I may consider these points for my ongoing R1 replacement programme

Rik

 

[bunnyrabbit03]

On a different tack, you might want to read my review of the Train Line point motor before buying one. Although OK so far on my line, they have some fairly major differences to LGB/Piko motors and significant limitations.

Although, as I have noted in the thread with your review, you can actually run through the point in a trailing direction when using the Train Line 45 point motor - at least on my layout

 

[bunnyrabbit03]

However if your considering an extension Trainline/LGB seem to be the only ones worthy of consideration, and possibly Trainline being the best option especially with the built in decoder/point motor if your going to use digital.

Just looked up Trainline on the Glendale website. They look interesting. I like the idea of R2 rather than R1 though I'm trying to standardise on R3s. Yes - it says the frog can be electrictrified - but assume that will require some sort of switching.

As I'm now too far down the LGB route I may consider these points for my ongoing R1 replacement programme

Rik

I like my Train Line R2 point. The screwed in metal strips seem to work very well (introduced in 2010 - earlier Train Line points have wires similar to Piko's design).

You can also electrify the frog if required. Either through a small micro switch (around £3 from for example Glendale) to fit in the point motor or through a polarisation kit for around £16 (no modification needed to the point motor in this case).

Marc

 

[stockers]

Paul - thats because you use the best form of maintenance - use. I run all LGB points and have never had a problem. But I run nearly every day. The little sliding contacts refered to above do need cleaning - using them is a good start.
As for Peco points - I agree with Paul - because I found out the hard way - cost me £80.
Nothing this small is going to last outside for ever - a bit of maintenance should be expected (when did you last service the car).

 

[ge_rik]

Paul - thats because you use the best form of maintenance - use. I run all LGB points and have never had a problem. But I run nearly every day. The little sliding contacts refered to above do need cleaning - using them is a good start.
As for Peco points - I agree with Paul - because I found out the hard way - cost me £80.
Nothing this small is going to last outside for ever - a bit of maintenance should be expected (when did you last service the car).

Yes - I must admit I run my railway infrequently. I'd like to run it more often but I never seem to have as much time as I would like.

Rik

 

[mike]

id go for lgb, or trainline.. i unfortantly jhave some piko points wich are nearly 7 months old.. and 5 out off 6 have failed.. compared to the 5 year old lgb 1s whic are fine.. i have a new trainline point, and the digical point motor, this is of a better build quality than the piko and lgb.. but its not been out side yet

 

[mbiff]

i have a mix of trackwork - lgb/usat and tenmille all fine - i have only lgb piontwork so i cant comment on other makes altho i do rare servicing on the piontwork with wd40 for corrosion on contacts ect and it keeps them in tip top condition from garden crud and to keep good condutivity .

 

[peterexmouth]

The Piko pointwork construction is fine. It's the electrical continuity that is a problem because the assembly work in the factory has been bodged. It is easliy corrected with new screws and washers and a bit of soldering, but this really shouldn't have been neccessary in a new product. Piko and their distributors are not doing themselves any good by simply not replying to the thread on the problem. Persumably the same faults must have been noticed on German G Scale web sites, or did we just get a duff batch in the UK?
I use LGB, USA trains, Aristocraft and Piko trackwork and have no other problems with the mix.

Peter

 

[PaulRhB]

I think as one post mentions above that we need to remember all these points are used in different environments. Close to the sea and you get salt corrosion, we get a lot of dust blown up which is evidently from the sahara and why we seem to get build ups of grit if we use grease. The shade in the garden and likelihood of frost also affect each if us differently.
We should expect to maintain points at least once a year, we do it every week on the full size ones. I wouldn't be too keen on WD40 myself as it can form a black Teflon like coating if they aren't regularly used to wear it off, again something we've found on the full size railway after someone on the S&T going mad with it.
Peck points were designed for scale modellers who want something more realistic in profile so if your locos have skates you can either remove or bend them. We will have to compromise somewhere if we want scale appearance, usually in having to clean more frequently.
So if you want to just run trains then LGB is probably still the best and most expensive but their newer points do tend to bow up in the middle which can cause the 4 wheel locos to stutter, (screw them to a batten and it flattens them out).
If you want a model railway in true scale then Peco are better.
If you are trying to save pennies then Piko are still a valid option but it may be worth beefing up the wiring before laying them.

 

[ge_rik]

I think as one post mentions above that we need to remember all these points are used in different environments. Close to the sea and you get salt corrosion, we get a lot of dust blown up which is evidently from the sahara and why we seem to get build ups of grit if we use grease. The shade in the garden and likelihood of frost also affect each if us differently.

Climate could well be a factor in my case. My garden faces north and for much of the year is in the shade of the house. I have a lot of moss growth which only sometimes dries out in the summer months (weather permitting), and also I use cement in my ballast mix which could well have a corrosive effect. It could well be that the ambient conditions in my garden are not the most conducive to point longevity.

Rik

 

[3Valve]

I have a mixture of LGB and Trainline Pointwork. My LGB points required no maintenance or fettling whatsoever for the 8 years that they were in service in my prevous garden. I also had a Trainline R2 which was down for approximately two years. Again no issues at all.

More recently I purchased some quite "ropey" looking LGB R3's at G-Rail, but despite their appearance they too performed faultlessly (however they may have had the electrical "fix" applied - not sure).

I had been considering Piko for the new line as I wanted to go R3 throughout and the price makes them appear very attractive. However given the "point lurgy" problem reported here I'm now leaning toward to the Trainline/LGB route again.

 

[ge_rik]

It seems that my experiences with LGB pointwork is fairly atypical of the norm. I've bought them from various sources - new and secondhand, so they are a range of vintages - and all but a couple (mostly the most recently added) have failed with electrical continuity. The faults do seem to materialise in the first running session after the winter - I seldom if ever run the railway during the winter.

I do some very basic maintenance each year (ie cleaning around the tie bars and general de-crudding) but have not used WD40 as there seems to be conflicting evidence as to its effectiveness. I'd be very interested in others' point maintenance programmes as it seems I must be doing something wrong somewhere. How do you prepare your pointwork for the winter?

Rik

 

[ge_rik]

Reading back through the posts, I see that some clean the contact strips which the point blades wipe over when making contact with the stock rails. I've never bothered with this - in fact I'm not really sure why they are there. As LGB points are dead frog, the point blade/switch rail assembly leading to the frog can (should?) be constantly live - at least that's my assumption. Hence I've bonded those rails to the relevant stock rail with soldered jumper leads when my point blades/switch rails have gone dead (what do you call the non-moving bit after the point blade leading up to the frog?).

I've not got an unlaid R3 to hand, but am I right in thinking there are bonding wires/strips underneath which are supposed to do this? It's these which seem to have failed on my points. I assume that those who are having to clean the contact strips are doing so because the contacts underneath their points have also broken down.

Or am I completely off the wall here? Maybe there are no links beneath the point and the manufacturers rely on that little contact strip. If they don't bond those rails together, I think they should.

Rik