Older LGB locos, motors, and amp draw

[TempLayout]

I haven't been able to dig too deep looking for answers, but I have looked and haven't seen anything as of yet.

My question is in regards to older LGB locos and the amp draw that they consume as compared to newly constructed models. Insofar as I'm aware, older locos are typically drawing around 3-4 amps as they work. From what I'm seeing on my DCC layout with a number of Piko Locos with Piko Decoders and one small LGB 70230 Starter Diesel that I put a Massoth XLS Decoder in, the amp draw from these locos is much lower. I have a Piko Starter DCC command station which outputs 5 amps. The controller/cab/throttle for the system has a readout for the power levels on the layout. That's what I'm basing my information on regarding my locos power consumption. Do modern LGB moguls draw less amps than those such as a LGB 2019d manufactured between 1988-1993? I was reading some model railroading books and one thing I've read in a few places is how technology has evolved and new models consume less amps and have become much more efficient.

Mainly what I'm getting at is that I'd like to convert some older LGB locos to DCC. However, if those locos are pulling much higher amps than the other locos on the layout, it really limits how much I can run at once. My initial thought is that I could just replace the motors with new ones assuming that the new ones are of a different design that uses less power... maybe? Some of them run pretty rough as it is and whether or not the motor can be serviced or how much life is left in them, I am not sure. Replacing them just may be the most economical thing to do if I factor time into the equation.

Everywhere I see new motors for sale and any manual or information about them do not list specifications of the motors other than which loco model they are made for.

Maybe I just have some reading and math to do. Specification Guide Electric Motors

 

[curtis]

3-4 amps seems very high. I've got a bunch of older locos and a single motor, even under load rarely draws more than 1A. Are you seeing this with multiple locos? Can you test the motor in isolation?

I say this as someone who enjoys buying older locos on eBay and sprucing them up with digitisation and modernisation. I have used a bunch of smaller decoders that only support up to 1A without issue.

 

[korm kormsen]

Insofar as I'm aware, older locos are typically drawing around 3-4 amps as they work.

i think, there you got some misinformation. my mileage varies.
on a simple test circle with the (very old) transformer/regulator N°5002 - 18V DC / 9VA -two Stainzes and two tenders (all four with the old split motorblocks and Buhler motors) did run for hours on medium speed.
by your counting that poor starterpack transformer from 1970 should have had an output of at least 10Amp...
another LGB transformer N° 50080, labeled 22V DC / 1 Ampere, did move up to seven(!) old Stainzes at slower speed. (the 8th Stainz tripped the breaker).
my impression is just the opposite - the newer the Stainzes, the more powerhungry they are.

 

[Software Tools]

Mainly what I'm getting at is that I'd like to convert some older LGB locos to DCC. However, if those locos are pulling much higher amps than the other locos on the layout, it really limits how much I can run at once.

The basic motor used in most LGB locos has not changed in any substantive way over the years. A few locos have other sorts of motors due physical limitations in the model concerned but on the whole the motors are highly standardised (though there are a couple of physical versions for different wheelbases).

As for any LGB single loco drawing 3 to 4 amps by itself, even for dual motor locos that is an extraordinary high reading!

The thing that has changed over the years is the ancillary electronics in locos. Nowadays that has changed a lot from earlier times, but on the whole ancillary "stuff" in a loco doesn't draw much power by itself.

As for your rough running locos, you need to work out what is causing the problems rather than making assumptions it is the motor.

 

[TempLayout]

Thanks for the replies. This all makes sense. I was a bit confused about information that I've read from various sources regard technological advances as insofar as I'm aware simple DC motors are pretty straightforward and I'm not too sure where/how such advances would be made unless the industry was switching over to brushless motors or some other sort of major change like that. A lot of info out there is also directed towards other scales, so it may be something regarding HO or some other smaller scales that I ran across.

curtis: I have not tested the amp draw on any of these locos I'm planning to work with. (actually on any DC locos) I've just got a backlog of older LGB locos that I've picked up here and there and have been playing mental games about what I'm going to do with them and how I'm going to do it. I'll run some tests on them though in the not so far off future to get some concrete data.

korm: That's good news to hear. Hopefully I can get them fixed up and run without issues.

Software Tools: The circuit boards and such having major changes as compared to those of yesteryear certainly makes sense. I imagine that I'll be taking all of that stuff out when putting new electronics in them.
Edit to add: I don't assume anything is wrong with the motors. More that I was just looking for a better understanding of the information that I read that seemed to not be inline with other evidence I see from reading forums and other internet sources. The motors are pretty simple and robust. I actually think they are probably fine unless they have some heavy damage from an outside influence like water/dirt or the brushes worn heavily... I'll have to check. I just figured that IF there were a difference between old motors and new ones and I'm going through the trouble of opening them up and doing some heavy work inside, I may as well just replace the motors too if it would make a difference, which it sounds like it probably wouldn't.

 

[dunnyrail]

When we were running the Ruschbahn we had 10 or more Sound locomotives (around 1/2 2 motored jobbies) out on the line. With around 5-6 operators that many locomotives would be running at any one time. We had a Massoth 1210 type Central Station that never shut down due to excess Amps being drawn. It is I believe the 1210z that is adjustable for 4,7 or 12 Amps. Not sure if the Ruschbahn was set to or even had that 12Amps setting though.

 

[curtis]

Thanks for the replies. This all makes sense. I was a bit confused about information that I've read from various sources regard technological advances as insofar as I'm aware simple DC motors are pretty straightforward and I'm not too sure where/how such advances would be made unless the industry was switching over to brushless motors or some other sort of major change like that. A lot of info out there is also directed towards other scales, so it may be something regarding HO or some other smaller scales that I ran across.

curtis: I have not tested the amp draw on any of these locos I'm planning to work with. (actually on any DC locos) I've just got a backlog of older LGB locos that I've picked up here and there and have been playing mental games about what I'm going to do with them and how I'm going to do it. I'll run some tests on them though in the not so far off future to get some concrete data.

korm: That's good news to hear. Hopefully I can get them fixed up and run without issues.

Software Tools: The circuit boards and such having major changes as compared to those of yesteryear certainly makes sense. I imagine that I'll be taking all of that stuff out when putting new electronics in them.
Edit to add: I don't assume anything is wrong with the motors. More that I was just looking for a better understanding of the information that I read that seemed to not be inline with other evidence I see from reading forums and other internet sources. The motors are pretty simple and robust. I actually think they are probably fine unless they have some heavy damage from an outside influence like water/dirt or the brushes worn heavily... I'll have to check. I just figured that IF there were a difference between old motors and new ones and I'm going through the trouble of opening them up and doing some heavy work inside, I may as well just replace the motors too if it would make a difference, which it sounds like it probably wouldn't.

Sounds like a good plan. The other posts here seem to suggest a similar expectation around the draw, so hopefully, this is achievable for what you're planning. Keep us updated and let us know if you've got more questions - it's a friendly group very open to sharing knwoledge!

 

[mike]

If a lgb motor, is pulling more than 1/2 amp its worn and needs attention, replacements are not hard to get

 

[LGB333]

I haven't been able to dig too deep looking for answers, but I have looked and haven't seen anything as of yet.

My question is in regards to older LGB locos and the amp draw that they consume as compared to newly constructed models. Insofar as I'm aware, older locos are typically drawing around 3-4 amps as they work. From what I'm seeing on my DCC layout with a number of Piko Locos with Piko Decoders and one small LGB 70230 Starter Diesel that I put a Massoth XLS Decoder in, the amp draw from these locos is much lower. I have a Piko Starter DCC command station which outputs 5 amps. The controller/cab/throttle for the system has a readout for the power levels on the layout. That's what I'm basing my information on regarding my locos power consumption. Do modern LGB moguls draw less amps than those such as a LGB 2019d manufactured between 1988-1993? I was reading some model railroading books and one thing I've read in a few places is how technology has evolved and new models consume less amps and have become much more efficient.

Mainly what I'm getting at is that I'd like to convert some older LGB locos to DCC. However, if those locos are pulling much higher amps than the other locos on the layout, it really limits how much I can run at once. My initial thought is that I could just replace the motors with new ones assuming that the new ones are of a different design that uses less power... maybe? Some of them run pretty rough as it is and whether or not the motor can be serviced or how much life is left in them, I am not sure. Replacing them just may be the most economical thing to do if I factor time into the equation.

Everywhere I see new motors for sale and any manual or information about them do not list specifications of the motors other than which loco model they are made for.

Maybe I just have some reading and math to do. Specification Guide Electric Motors

The general rule of thumb for LGB locomotives is to estimate one amp per motor for your DCC system requirements. Of course, the larger and heavier locomotives, Stainz v. Mogul, will draw more amps than a smaller one motor locomotive. So, for a five amp DCC system, you should be able to operate five one motor locomotives, or say two two motors units and one one motor unit. If you have grades to traverse, that obviously will draw more amperage than on a flat surface.

 

[Dan]

The LGB short shaft motors came in 3 versions. The first one needed thrust 'balls' on each end of the motor and was slightly shorter then the next versions (shaft moved in and out of the motor). Next is the motor not needing the thrust bearings and was visibly a little longer. Both of these had red and black plastic holders for the motor brushes. 3rd version the one now shipping has the same length as the 2nd version but no plastic holders. Even the motor blocks on the oldest LGB engines had a slightly shorter case holding the motor. Some saw this and had a lathe trim the motor to fit better, some modified the motor block and then others just forced the newer motors to fit (not a good idea force fitting!!). Also note the very first LGB engines were called growlers as the motors (not the 3 versions I liste4d above) were really loud and extremely hard to find now. These I have seen were mostly found in the very old Stainz and steam tram.