Newcomer to DCC info required

[whatlep]

LGB 21261 black Frank 'S', decoder interface cable required (build date 1997). I assume two decoders will be needed, hopefully one with sound. Any options?

You need two decoders and two interface cables (55026). For sound, one Massoth LS, plus one Massoth L would be best.

LGB 22261 green Frank 'S', manual refers to interface cable required, but drive has Digital symbol over MTS mouse symbol (build date 2001). I assume would be then digital with decoder/s(?) fitted.

Curious! In theory 22261 should be same as previous answer, but you're right about the implications of the sticker. May be best to wait until you get your DCC set up and then see if the loco emits the analogue buzz or not.

LGB 20705 Zillertalbahn Samler collector set (loco build date Oct. 2000). Direct decoder with digital factory sound. Would I need to use a LGB decoder or would later aftermarket decoder 'direct' install?

You need either a Massoth L or LGB 55021. Massoth L is better. Avoid any other types as the loco's board is designed specifically for those to plug in. Getting other decoders to work will mean some soldering and snipping of the loco's internal wiring.

LGB 20970 Deutsche Post Sprinter set, digital. Have no idea of type of LGB decoder fitted. Apart from dismantling, any way to tell, please?

Probably a 55020. LGB used them up in digital sets when they couldn't sell them. The set's MTS instructions are here: http://www.champex-linden.de/lgb_pr...195CB085256E5F004E5E7C/$FILE/20970_032004.pdf

 

[Cliff George]

Hello Tim,

Cliff,
thought about the others. Zimo far too expensive (even though arguably the best available). Digitrax has a poor reputation in largescale. Lenz has an excellent central station and cab but it is tethered. I have heard thatr the Lenz decoders are not first rate for largescale use. Also, using a mobile phone is not my choice of wireless control. ESU is excellent, but like Zimo is too expensive. Also one must consider availability to our distant shores.

Cost wise the NCE is value for money, wireless and a full 10 amps. Most others are 5 amps (nominally just over 4 amps continuous). Zimo is 8 amps. My choice of decoders will be either ESU or Massoth (sound seems more refined on the ESU chips).

I see you have done your research well.

Could I make a few comments on the Lenz system, if I may please. I use this system.

It is possible to get a notional 10A Lenz system by putting the command station in parallel with a booster (my measurment make the combination about 8A in total). It is in the Lenz manual how to do this.

The majority of my decoders are Lenz Gold Maxi, never had any problems with them. I have had problems with Massoth decoders and I wouldn't use them again. The only reason I had to look away from Lenz decoders was the issue of sound. Adding a dedicated sound decoder onto the SUSI interface works well but is an expensive option compared with combined driving and sound decoders which Lenz don't make.

I have the cordless phone control and it works well. It is a bit of a pain remembering which combination of buttons to press so I have created a crib sheet that I carry around with me. Also I usually run fully automatically anyway so the manual control is seldom used. Soon Lenz will have a new command station which combined with a new ethernet computer interface and some software will allow control with someing like a iPad, iPod, smartphone or Android iPad clone.

I agree Zimo is great but expensive here. I couldn't comment on Digitrax or ESU, although I do know of a railway here that uses a Digitrax system.

 

[Tim Brien]

Thankyou for the info on decoders required.

Cliff,
Lenz was my emotional choice as they were the pioneers of DCC. I have heard of paralleling boosters to get more amperage. The system in my opinion is let down by the method of wireless control. I really could not see myself getting my fingers around a cordless phone keypad and importantly remembering what does what. Basic functions are simple enough like accel/decel and direction and addressing. However, things like programming, I assume one needs the dispatcher hand control.

 

[Cliff George]

Hello Tim,

Thankyou for the info on decoders required.

Cliff,
Lenz was my emotional choice as they were the pioneers of DCC. I have heard of paralleling boosters to get more amperage. The system in my opinion is let down by the method of wireless control. I really could not see myself getting my fingers around a cordless phone keypad and importantly remembering what does what. Basic functions are simple enough like accel/decel and direction and addressing. However, things like programming, I assume one needs the dispatcher hand control.

Yes you are correct that you can't do programing via a cordless phone. It can be done from a Lenz hand controller, as you say, or if you have a computer and the Lenz computer interface via some software such as DecoderPro. I do programing via the computer.

 

[PaulRhB]

Tim
Sorry to confuse yes I meant unless already fitted I'd choose something else like the ESU ones. I've used zimo and ESU and prefer ESU. Nce is an excellent choice of system, intuitive and expandable if they offered a wireless one I would use it over LGB. I use it for HO and very capable and flexible without having to buy lots of extras.

 

[PaulRhB]

Yes dcc isn't as simple as the two wire myth it takes a bit of learning but it's worth it. Sound taking control? Well mostly because they have chosen sound sets that realistically represent the real engine so it will make it run a bit different but hopefully more like the real thing. Remember that you only have to play around so much with obscure cv's because the LGB / Massoth systems aren't 100% Nmra compatible so require some slight mods to compensate. When I started on this no one knew the answers and it was Zimo that was brave enough to confirm first their decoders were ok with LGB and others followed.
There is a marked difference in how sounds perform if the recorded loops are too long, they then can't react to the throttle changes in time and you get sounds running away, so there seems to be a way of making the decoder wait for the sound to finish at the program stage but no idea where this control is. For example my Heidi uses a ESU BR91 sound and when you reverse direction it takes about 8 seconds while the reverser clanks and draincocks open. Turn off the sound and she reverses instantly.

 

[Tim Brien]

Paul,
I feel that ESU has better sound quality than the Massoth decoder, however, as someone with no DCC experience, I am 'frightened' of the ESU programming, as many have commented on difficulty in getting a satisfactory outcome with no prior knowledge. I have no one to turn to locally for help. Could you briefly explain the inadequacy of the Massoth/LGB decoder. Keep in mind that decoder brands are difficult to source locally and while not my choice, I may need to go Massoth due able to purchase here. For ESU I really need to source in the U.S.

I am after a decoder that gives me direction, speed and sound. I am not after all the 'bells and whistles' so to speak.

 

[PaulRhB]

The only inadequacy is that they have limited the very things that make the ESU that bit better, this is a good choice for those that want to put in a chip and maybe fiddle with the acceleration and braking and then play trains.
However if you want the possibility to make them sound and perform like a real engine then the ESU and zimo allow the reverser settings to be simulated for steam and the regulator setting too, or revving independent of speed (thrashing sounds) fir diesel. If you intend getting more than one then the lokprogrammer is a worthwhile investment as it makes programming much simpler as it's all laid out on windows that explain exactly what you are altering. I'm no computer whizz but with minimal experiment and help on here I've got excellent performance on ESU chips in 4 G scale locos and 6 in HO.
I was operating a friends OO layout at a show yesterday and with a class 37 diesel I was able to start with a burst of heavy throttle by knocking it straight to throttle 12, allowing it to get rolling then knock back to 8 which was the desired speed, once off the points I pushed it up to 16 then after another snort of power dropped down to 12 to run off scene. Minimal control input and a loco that sounds just like the real thing in the hands of a throttle happy driver.
As you said with steam with switching on the load dependent sound, and keep the max volume at least down to 54, you can drive it in a similar way simulating full cut off when accelerating and you get a nice clanking sound as they coast to a stand too. (limiting the volume allows the chip to use that extra 10 range for the louder acceleration sounds)
With electric locos there's no appreciable advantage over Massoth as you can't rev an electric.

 

[Tim Brien]

Paul,
many thanks. I suppose that I am 'dumbing' myself down, but I am really just after something that operates a loco and sounds OK. I do have the LGB (Massoth?) programmer #55045 for PC serial port connection. I used this to set some CV's on the LGB #6500X series digital sound decoders that I use in analogue mode. Is this of any use to me?

 

[PaulRhB]

Yes it should be fine, although I've only used one on LGB chips, as it allows you to set individual cvs too using the bit at the bottom of the screen. Once tweaked they don't need any more driving than the Massoth ones but you do have the option to get the extra realism with a bit of driving as described above.
We can guide you through using, and getting the best from, any of them between the group on here.
I have three programmers due to various interests the SPROG, LGB programmer and the ESU unit too (I only got this due to the ability to reprogram the sounds as well)
If you want a universal programmer that will handle everything but uploading new sounds the SPROG is well worth considering as it's by far the cheapest and most versatile, ( a rare example of superb value for money)

 

[PaulRhB]

Tim
This thread should help for setting up ESU decoders to work with LGB as all the cvs you'll need are listed.

 

[Tim Brien]

Paul,
could you repost the link as stated in previous posting. I spoke to a local ESU decoder supplier and he advised that very few CV changes are needed, mainly top speed, mid speed, crawl speed and possibly some accel/decel settings. He can supply me with a Loksound XL configured for my loco and complete with speaker for around $270. A comparable Massoth chip is around $400.

 

[Zerogee]

...... I spoke to a local ESU decoder supplier and he advised that very few CV changes are needed, mainly top speed, mid speed, crawl speed and possibly some accel/decel settings. He can supply me with a Loksound XL configured for my loco and complete with speaker for around $270. A comparable Massoth chip is around $400.

That pricing difference is interesting - over here, Massoth and ESU are very close in price, with the Massoth ones generally being a little cheaper. There must be some major differences in the way the two brands are imported over there.

Jon.

 

[Tim Brien]

When one is making a comparison, say LGB type 11 decoder against the Massoth 'L', then is the value judgement based on the limitations imposed on the LGB chip by its design, i.e. minimum speed steps and short address only. Also, the type 1 and type 11 chips seem to come with a power buffer inbuilt, according to their instructions (additional cost on the Massoth brand).

I can purchase a Massoth 'L' for $112 or an original LGB type 11 for $140. It is difficult to break away from the LGB mould and choose the 'better' Massoth chip. I am specifically referring to these as my first install will be a direct decoder on a digital sound Zillertalbahn 0-6-2 'Raimund'.