Newcomer to DCC info required

[Tim Brien]

I am venturing into the magical world of DCC. I intend using a 10 amp NCE Pro-Cab with wireless throttle. My questions relate to older, circa-2000 LGB models.

LGB 21261 black Frank 'S', decoder interface cable required (build date 1997). I assume two decoders will be needed, hopefully one with sound. Any options?

LGB 22261 green Frank 'S', manual refers to interface cable required, but drive has Digital symbol over MTS mouse symbol (build date 2001). I assume would be then digital with decoder/s(?) fitted.

LGB 20705 Zillertalbahn Samler collector set (loco build date Oct. 2000). Direct decoder with digital factory sound. Would I need to use a LGB decoder or would later aftermarket decoder 'direct' install?

LGB 20970 Deutsche Post Sprinter set, digital. Have no idea of type of LGB decoder fitted. Apart from dismantling, any way to tell, please?

I have not purchased the DCC set as yet so am unable to check any decoder installation as regards LGB type fitted. Are LGB chips compatible with late model DCC non-MTS systems?

 

[Zerogee]

I am venturing into the magical world of DCC. I intend using a 10 amp NCE Pro-Cab with wireless throttle. My questions relate to older, circa-2000 LGB models.

LGB 21261 black Frank 'S', decoder interface cable required (build date 1997). I assume two decoders will be needed, hopefully one with sound. Any options?

LGB 22261 green Frank 'S', manual refers to interface cable required, but drive has Digital symbol over MTS mouse symbol (build date 2001). I assume would be then digital with decoder/s(?) fitted.

LGB 20705 Zillertalbahn Samler collector set (loco build date Oct. 2000). Direct decoder with digital factory sound. Would I need to use a LGB decoder or would later aftermarket decoder 'direct' install?

LGB 20970 Deutsche Post Sprinter set, digital. Have no idea of type of LGB decoder fitted. Apart from dismantling, any way to tell, please?

I have not purchased the DCC set as yet so am unable to check any decoder installation as regards LGB type fitted. Are LGB chips compatible with late model DCC non-MTS systems?

Hi Tim, welcome to the forum (I see this is your first post) and to the weird and wacky world of DCC....

OK, the advice below is all my own opinions, and worth exactly what you paid for it (ie: zilch!) - there are many others on the forum who are FAR more knowledgeable and experienced in the ways of DCC than I am, and hopefully they will chime in with other ideas and to correct anything I get wrong....
First, I have NO experience of the NCE Pro-Cab - I've only ever used LGB and Massoth systems - but as far as I'm aware, LGB and Massoth products conform to DCC standards and everything should, in theory, work together. Several other decoder makes (eg: ESU) could be substituted for some of the Massoth suggestions I've made, but as I have no experience of them I'll let others who have comment there.

21261 black Frank S: designed for two decoders, I think; while most two-motor locos can be run off a single decoder with enough "oomph" (eg: a Massoth XL/XLS), the Frank S is known to have problems with the tender running faster than the loco; it is fitted with electronic gubbins to equalize this, I think, but if the decoder fitting bypasses this factory-installed stuff it might cause problems. Fitting two decoders (eg: an XL in the loco and an XLS with sound in the tender) allows you to fiddle with the speeds of the two motors independently if necessary. I'll have to defer to Those Who Know (tm) on this one....

22261 green Frank S: sounds like it's already digital-fitted, so you should have no problem with this one. Given it's age, probably 2 x 55020 LGB decoders. If you want to add sound, a little Massoth S (sound-only decoder) and speaker can probably be put in the tender quite easily.

20705 Zillertal: an early LGB decoder would plug straight on the the factory electronics board, but a Massoth L or XL would also work fine using the wiring harness that comes with the decoder.

20970 post sprinter - depending on when built, might have a 55020 or might be an "LGB Onboard Decoder" which is a larger, squarer board with more sockets. You shouldn't need to do anything to this one unless you want to add sound, where a Massoth S should do the trick again as above.

I hope that's of some help, I'm sure others here will give you more! Good luck, and just ask!

Jon.

 

[Tim Brien]

Jon,
many thanks. As a newcomer, I was after a simple method to get started. It seems that my locomotives already fitted with decoders (probably LGB type 1 or possibly type 11, definately pre-parallel release), may work. I feel inclined towards the ESU LoksoundXL 3.5 decoders for those locomotives that I will be doing installs in.

I noticed with the analogue (black) Frank 'S' that the tender required connection to locomotive to work, whereas the 'digital (green) Frank 'S', the tender works independently.

I like the idea of the Piko DCC system in that I could use the wireless cab (Navigator) with either DCC or analogue operation (I would need to also purchase a Piko 5 amp analogue controller to enable).

 

[ntpntpntp]

Welcome Tim!
I assume, as you're considering the wireless NCE system, that you're NOT based in the UK? I have a 10 amp NCE PowerPro, very pleased with it as a system but sad that the wireless stuff isn't legal in the UK.

Generally I have no problems with LGB decoders. I have one older Mikado with factory-fitted on-board MTS that doesn't understand 128 speed steps or long addresses, I have to remember to select 28 speed steps otherwise it won't respond. Some very early LGB decoders only understand 14 speed steps (and short addresses), but again just need to remember to choose the correct throttle setting on the NCE.

 

[PaulRhB]

If you're using the Nce you can happily run LGB decoders. Also have a look in the decoder fitting compilation thread sticky in this section as it contains many installations of LGB, Massoth and others in LGB locos and also the wiring colours so you know what's what on the interface lead.
Personally I would recommend non Massoth LGB (they are both made by Massoth) decoders if you are using a Nce system as that allows you to use more speed steps if you want to later.

Twin motor LGB locos are usually two totally separate locos effectively (early LGB decoders could only handle one motor) so with 3 amp decoders I put jumpers between the contacts so the single decoder picks up from all wheels and powers both motors, eliminates one unit stalling due to a dead spot.
If a loco is fitted with a direct decoder socket then an LGB chip will plug into the onboard circuit using the pins sticking out and you chop off the leads.

 

[Zerogee]

Jon,
many thanks. As a newcomer, I was after a simple method to get started. It seems that my locomotives already fitted with decoders (probably LGB type 1 or possibly type 11, definately pre-parallel release), may work. I feel inclined towards the ESU LoksoundXL 3.5 decoders for those locomotives that I will be doing installs in.

I noticed with the analogue (black) Frank 'S' that the tender required connection to locomotive to work, whereas the 'digital (green) Frank 'S', the tender works independently.

I like the idea of the Piko DCC system in that I could use the wireless cab (Navigator) with either DCC or analogue operation (I would need to also purchase a Piko 5 amp analogue controller to enable).

I think the difference between the two Frank S versions is down to what I mentioned earlier - the tendency for the tender motor to naturally run faster than the loco one (presumably because the tender is not burdened with the extra drag of the third axle and the all the valve gear and siderods). The wiring between the tender and loco on the analogue Frank is to connect the tender to a speed-equalising board in the loco to get over this problem. If, as I assume, the digital Frank has separate decoders already fitted in loco and tender then they are probably adjusted at the factory to sychronize speeds digitally, so the interconnecting cable is not necessary.

The Piko DCC system is very new, I don't think anyone on here has even owned up to having one yet (in fact I'm not even sure if it is actually available), but if you do go that route please let us all know how it works out for you!

Jon.

 

[Tim Brien]

Nick and Paul many thanks. I live downunder. I have been advised that the frequency 916.5 is legal here (NCE Customer Support advice).

Paul,
please could you explain 'non-Massoth LGB decoders'. Are you saying purchase only genuine Massoth decoders, or LGB-branded decoders (made by Massoth? I do not mind wiring, but if a decoder is 'drop in' on a decoder ready board, then I would prefer this method as it saves complications with the 5 volt onboard lighting, or does the aftermarket decoder board supply 5 volts to lighting?

 

[Tim Brien]

Jon,
many thanks. The Piko system seems to be available locally, however cost is an issue. A basic central station plus Navigator and receiver is around $1200 (add around $300 for the 5 amp analogue controller if both DCC and analogue are to be used with the Navigator) . The NCE is 10 amp wireless for $700 from the U.S. including shipping. The Piko from the States with central station, Navigator 915mhz), receiver and 5 amp analogue controller is around $900 shipped. A basic Massoth (Dimax 800Z) starts around $2500. As a newcomer I cannot justify the expense over either the NCE or the Piko systems. I know the Piko is a 'dumbed down' Dimax. With the NCE being 10 amp and Piko 5 amp rating, I will most likely go for the NCE. A friend has one and is delighted with it.

 

[Zerogee]

The one option you didn't mention, Tim - though I'm sure you've considered it - is to start with LGB MTS3 kit, and then add a Navigator later as funds allow?

Jon.

 

[Tim Brien]

Jon,
LGB MTS111 are few and far between out here. A local LGB dealer has the central unit for around $600. Add to this a hand unit around $300 plus wireless receiver and we are exceeding even the Piko for cost. I very rarely see units on U.S. eBay and never on our local eBay site. I do not shop in Germany as few seem to take PayPal. I will not participate in bank transfers for payment. Does not leave me many options.

 

[Zerogee]

Hmmm, that's interesting, Tim. Is all LGB kit that expensive over there? I've just looked at Dragon G scale over here, and a full new MTSIII package with central station, 5amp transformer and loco remote (admittedly not wireless) works out at around 750 of your Aussie dollars after the 5% discount that Jeremy very kindly gives to all GSC forum members.
Re ordering from Germany, I've actually found that a lot more German dealers do now take Paypal - and I simply ignore those who don't!
It does sound, though, that from what you say the Piko might be your best option, and I'm sure we'd all like to hear how it works out if you do it. What mains voltage do you use over there, is it closer to the US or to what we have?

Jon.

 

[Tim Brien]

Jon,
we use 240 volts AC. Apparently, a lot of European stuff (transformers) is 220 volts and is unsuited to our usage. Yes, LGB is very, very expensive to purchase new from dealers. The grey trade across the Pacific Ocean is well trodden by the average modeller looking to LGB products.

 

[Zerogee]

Jon,
we use 240 volts AC. Apparently, a lot of European stuff (transformers) is 220 volts and is unsuited to our usage. Yes, LGB is very, very expensive to purchase new from dealers. The grey trade across the Pacific Ocean is well trodden by the average modeller looking to LGB products.

I don't think you'd have any problem with 220 volt euro stuff, Tim - we're 240 volts here like you, and we can happily use German imported 220v equipment, it's "close enough for Government work", as they say. The problem comes when you've got 110-120 volt stuff like the Yanks use.
Do you guys tend to get shafted by Customs when you get "grey import" stuff directly posted over to you? With UK Customs they should really enclose a free tube of vaseline to lessen the pain.....

Jon.

 

[Gizzy]

Jon,
we use 240 volts AC. Apparently, a lot of European stuff (transformers) is 220 volts and is unsuited to our usage. Yes, LGB is very, very expensive to purchase new from dealers. The grey trade across the Pacific Ocean is well trodden by the average modeller looking to LGB products.

Having 'harmonised' with Europe, the UK is now 230V AC 50 Hz.

(We dropped down and Europe stepped up from 220.)

Thus you shouldn't find any appreciable difference between European mains voltage and Austrailian, although I would look for equipment made post 2000 and marked up with the 'CE mark' just to be sure....

 

[Cliff George]

Hello Tim,

You could consider other DCC systems what about Digitrax, Lenz, ESU or even Zimo. Maybe they have cost advantages for you?

 

[Zerogee]

Jon,
we use 240 volts AC. Apparently, a lot of European stuff (transformers) is 220 volts and is unsuited to our usage. Yes, LGB is very, very expensive to purchase new from dealers. The grey trade across the Pacific Ocean is well trodden by the average modeller looking to LGB products.

Having 'harmonised' with Europe, the UK is now 230V AC 50 Hz.

(We dropped down and Europe stepped up from 220.)

Thus you shouldn't find any appreciable difference between European mains voltage and Austrailian, although I would look for equipment made post 2000 and marked up with the 'CE mark' just to be sure....

Heh! They slipped that one in quietly, Gizzy, I certainly never noticed!

 

[Gizzy]

Jon,
we use 240 volts AC. Apparently, a lot of European stuff (transformers) is 220 volts and is unsuited to our usage. Yes, LGB is very, very expensive to purchase new from dealers. The grey trade across the Pacific Ocean is well trodden by the average modeller looking to LGB products.

Having 'harmonised' with Europe, the UK is now 230V AC 50 Hz.

(We dropped down and Europe stepped up from 220.)

Thus you shouldn't find any appreciable difference between European mains voltage and Austrailian, although I would look for equipment made post 2000 and marked up with the 'CE mark' just to be sure....

Heh! They slipped that one in quietly, Gizzy, I certainly never noticed!

We wouldn't, being Euro spectics?

But the continentals did apparently, as some older light bulbs optimised for 220 V suddenly went pop....

 

[whatlep]

Having 'harmonised' with Europe, the UK is now 230V AC 50 Hz.

(We dropped down and Europe stepped up from 220.)

Thus you shouldn't find any appreciable difference between European mains voltage and Austrailian, although I would look for equipment made post 2000 and marked up with the 'CE mark' just to be sure....

Just to expand on that, the EU has had nominal voltage harmonisation since 1995 with manufacturers supposed to produce kit that will run OK on either 220v or 240v supplies. However, it was (and is) largely a paper exercise fudge with margins around the nominal voltage to allow for supply fluctuation. In reality, each European country could (and still can) operate their old national voltage and still be within the stated EU voltage tolerances!

Full harmonisation occurred at least in theory in 2003. Since then, any piece of kit must be capable of running at 230 volts plus a 10% margin up or down. So anything from 2003 should run OK between 207 and 253 volts.

p.s. in the interests of science I just checked our domestic mains voltage. Rock steady at 236 volts. So that would be good old 240 volts in reality!

 

[Tim Brien]

Cliff,
thought about the others. Zimo far too expensive (even though arguably the best available). Digitrax has a poor reputation in largescale. Lenz has an excellent central station and cab but it is tethered. I have heard thatr the Lenz decoders are not first rate for largescale use. Also, using a mobile phone is not my choice of wireless control. ESU is excellent, but like Zimo is too expensive. Also one must consider availability to our distant shores.

Cost wise the NCE is value for money, wireless and a full 10 amps. Most others are 5 amps (nominally just over 4 amps continuous). Zimo is 8 amps. My choice of decoders will be either ESU or Massoth (sound seems more refined on the ESU chips).

 

[Tim Brien]

Jon,
customs are excellent. There is no excise on hobby goods. Apparently, the law changed recently so that goods less than $1000 are exempt from charges. Previously, items under $500 were exempt and between $500 - $1000, a goods and services tax of 10% applied. Now the GST is imposed over $1000. However, over $1000 (including shipping and insurance) one is regarded as an importer and customs paperwork/declarations are required. This usually entails the services of a customs broker, so additional fees. None of the add on taxes like in the motherland!!