My Aristocraft C-16 completely stops occasionally for no apparent reason...

Y

yellow_cad

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Mine is a used C-16 that has been set up for battery power using an AirWire G3 board and an AirWire T5000 controller. In a one hour session of stop and go, but mostly go my C-16 stopped abruptly going at medium fast speed. If I turn down the throttle, reverse direction and move a few inches, then turn down the throttle, change direction back to forward, and then accelerate, it is back to normal and runs fine. I can't understand the abrupt stop. There is no interference with the train and the battery is fully charged when the session began.
One suggestion I got was as follows: "Check the lube on the large gear hub on the back end of the shaft. The gear presses on the housing in forward." I am not exactly sure how to pursue this to eliminate it as a possibility.
Any help with my stopping issue or even help with the previous suggestion would be greatly appreciated. Jim
 
This almost sounds like drivers slipping and locking up the valve gear, common on most Aristo steamers that use the "prime mover" geaboxes.

When a driver slips, the valve gear on one driver gets out of sync with the other and can lock up. Usually when this happens it is sudden and almost always the loco can be immediately run in reverse.

Running in reverse often "slips" the errant driver back in place, and now it will run forwards.

The next time this happens look to see if both drivers are in sync with each other (match counterweights or crankpins), be sure to check each side.

This is NOT the same as quartering, and on an aristo, quartering does not really matter.

Greg
 
Thanks, I will definitely check this next time it happens. Is there a fix for this drive gear slip? Is it likely to get progressively worse?
 
I'm not an expert on the C16, but I believe there were 2 versions, so can you see if you have the "prime mover" gearboxes?

If so the drivers are a friction fit on a tapered axle, and the solution is lapping the wheels to the half axles, cleaning and getting better screws to tighten them down.

Aristo has also slathered some with red loctite, but it's not a great solution, many of the screws have had the heads snap off in the axles with this junk.

Greg
 
Greg Elmassian said:
This almost sounds like drivers slipping and locking up the valve gear, common on most Aristo steamers that use the "prime mover" geaboxes.

When a driver slips, the valve gear on one driver gets out of sync with the other and can lock up. Usually when this happens it is sudden and almost always the loco can be immediately run in reverse.

Running in reverse often "slips" the errant driver back in place, and now it will run forwards.

The next time this happens look to see if both drivers are in sync with each other (match counterweights or crankpins), be sure to check each side.

This is NOT the same as quartering, and on an aristo, quartering does not really matter.

Greg
Click to expand...
It's raining here so I haven't run since your response, but just looking at the C16 locomotive on the bench the right side has crankpins up and to the left, counterweights down and to the right while the left side has crankpins down and to the right, counterweights up and to the left. From my experience with this unit, it would run fine right now in this configuration. Is this configuration the correct starting norm or should both sides be identical?
 
yellow_cad said:
It's raining here so I haven't run since your response, but just looking at the C16 locomotive on the bench the right side has crankpins up and to the left, counterweights down and to the right while the left side has crankpins down and to the right, counterweights up and to the left. From my experience with this unit, it would run fine right now in this configuration. Is this configuration the correct starting norm or should both sides be identical?
Click to expand...
That sounds as if the con rods are at 180 degrees, and could be the source of the problem.

The con rods ought to be at 90 degrees.

if you can stop the motor with one set of crank pins dead vertical (up or down) then the other side ought to be dead horizontal (forward or back). It doesn't matter which way for either of the bits in brackets.
 
Yes, the relationship between the left and right side is called "quartering" and is important in a real steam loco. Normally one side is 90 degrees from one side to each other.

As I stated, quartering is irrelevant to the operation of your model. (sorry Rhino, technically yes, but not going to solve his problem)

What is important is that all drivers on one side are exactly in phase with each other.

So, now run it until it locks up. Stop, and look at each side for any out of phase drivers.

some history on the slipping driver problem:
www.mylargescale.com

Aristocraft Mikado, opinions?

My layout is basically fictitious but based in some fact, encompassing my area of the smoky mountain foothills. I have been modeling stuff from the 30's to 40's near my Johnson City home. I have ET&WNC stuff and Southern RR. Someday I may like to include Clinchfield. I've been considering...
www.mylargescale.com www.mylargescale.com

Greg
 
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Greg Elmassian said:
Yes, the relationship between the left and right side is called "quartering" and is important in a real steam loco. Normally one side is 90 degrees from one side to each other.

As I stated, quartering is irrelevant to the operation of your model. (sorry Rhino, technically yes, but not going to solve his problem)

What is important is that all drivers on one side are exactly in phase with each other.

So, now run it until it locks up. Stop, and look at each side for any out of phase drivers.

some history on the slipping driver problem:
www.mylargescale.com

Aristocraft Mikado, opinions?

My layout is basically fictitious but based in some fact, encompassing my area of the smoky mountain foothills. I have been modeling stuff from the 30's to 40's near my Johnson City home. I have ET&WNC stuff and Southern RR. Someday I may like to include Clinchfield. I've been considering...
www.mylargescale.com www.mylargescale.com

Greg
Click to expand...
Gotcha - I assumed from the OP's post that all of the cranks were in line, hence my concern about 180 degree position.

However, thinking about it, my recollection of the second version of the C-16 (prime mover) was that there is a gearbox on each axle, thus the 180 degree problem could pale into insignificance.
 
Greg Elmassian said:
Yes, the relationship between the left and right side is called "quartering" and is important in a real steam loco. Normally one side is 90 degrees from one side to each other.

As I stated, quartering is irrelevant to the operation of your model. (sorry Rhino, technically yes, but not going to solve his problem)

What is important is that all drivers on one side are exactly in phase with each other.

So, now run it until it locks up. Stop, and look at each side for any out of phase drivers.

some history on the slipping driver problem:
www.mylargescale.com

Aristocraft Mikado, opinions?

My layout is basically fictitious but based in some fact, encompassing my area of the smoky mountain foothills. I have been modeling stuff from the 30's to 40's near my Johnson City home. I have ET&WNC stuff and Southern RR. Someday I may like to include Clinchfield. I've been considering...
www.mylargescale.com www.mylargescale.com

Greg
Click to expand...
Thanks. I understand the problem and the fix now, but I have not been able to locate a sheet on the disassembly/assembly of the C16 so I can get the procedures for partial disassembly and reassembly.
 
You have not lived until you have seen this driver slippage in action... normally one driver slips, and jams the rod gear and the loco stops.

Some times it actually breaks a crankpin off, and then you have a side rod flopping around and the free end invariably goes down into the ballast, like a pole vaulter... now the front of the loco flys up, doing a "wheelie"... I have seen it.... I had a friend that refused to take steps to stop the slippage, just would re-phase the driver, and try to tighten the screw.... finally after about it's 3rd wheelie, it flew off the raised layout onto the concrete floor... broke a lot of stuff....

Greg

p.s. you have not indicated which version you have, the new or old version... perhaps this page will help you:

2-8-0 C-16

Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers
elmassian.com elmassian.com
 
Greg Elmassian said:
You have not lived until you have seen this driver slippage in action... normally one driver slips, and jams the rod gear and the loco stops.

Some times it actually breaks a crankpin off, and then you have a side rod flopping around and the free end invariably goes down into the ballast, like a pole vaulter... now the front of the loco flys up, doing a "wheelie"... I have seen it.... I had a friend that refused to take steps to stop the slippage, just would re-phase the driver, and try to tighten the screw.... finally after about it's 3rd wheelie, it flew off the raised layout onto the concrete floor... broke a lot of stuff....

Greg

p.s. you have not indicated which version you have, the new or old version... perhaps this page will help you:

2-8-0 C-16

Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers
elmassian.com elmassian.com
Click to expand...
Mine is the new C16.
 
Great, so much better drivetrain, except for the possiblity of slipping drivers.

So, the first thing to do is lay the loco on it's back and try to turn each of the 4 drivers... try turning all 8 one at a time, and twist each in both directions. If you have a loose driver you will find it.

One issue is that trying to tighten the screw so the driver does not slip has 2 issues: the first is that the screws are crappy metal and often the head strips or even breaks off.

Another issue is that the end of the axle may protrude too far into the center of the wheel. The way the system is supposed to operate is the head of the screw puts pressure on the lock washer. The lock washer puts pressure on the inner ledge of the wheel.

Tightening the screw pulls the axle in.

The problem occurs if the axle comes in too far, then the screw clamps the lockwasher to the axle, not clamping the wheel. If you have a slipping wheel, you can see if this is the problem by removing the screw and see that the axle tip is recessed as compared to the "ledge" inside the wheel.

You can do this inspections without removing the boiler.

Greg
 
Greg Elmassian said:
Great, so much better drivetrain, except for the possiblity of slipping drivers.

So, the first thing to do is lay the loco on it's back and try to turn each of the 4 drivers... try turning all 8 one at a time, and twist each in both directions. If you have a loose driver you will find it.

One issue is that trying to tighten the screw so the driver does not slip has 2 issues: the first is that the screws are crappy metal and often the head strips or even breaks off.

Another issue is that the end of the axle may protrude too far into the center of the wheel. The way the system is supposed to operate is the head of the screw puts pressure on the lock washer. The lock washer puts pressure on the inner ledge of the wheel.

Tightening the screw pulls the axle in.

The problem occurs if the axle comes in too far, then the screw clamps the lockwasher to the axle, not clamping the wheel. If you have a slipping wheel, you can see if this is the problem by removing the screw and see that the axle tip is recessed as compared to the "ledge" inside the wheel.

You can do this inspections without removing the boiler.

Greg
Click to expand...
As it stand now, all drive wheels appear to be nice and tight. If it turns out to be a slippage problem when I run the locomotive even if it is only one wheel, then I will lap in all four drive wheels. Last time it ran it ran quite a while before stopping once and after I restarted it, it didn't stop again so at this point it is occasionally. Since all is nice and tight now, I'll wait to run it to be sure that is my problem. As to the disassembly, I would like to know the correct way to remove the wheels so as to not damage any linkage parts including the best way to remove the screws in the wheels since they are loctited and I don't wish to have a broken off screw.
 
Ahh, all you have to do is read my site, extensive page on everything you could ever want to know about the "prime mover" gearbox assemblies used in both steamers and diesels: (honestly probably the most extensive on the web, put together over the years).

Prime Mover Motor Blocks

Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers
elmassian.com elmassian.com

Greg
 
Greg Elmassian said:
Ahh, all you have to do is read my site, extensive page on everything you could ever want to know about the "prime mover" gearbox assemblies used in both steamers and diesels: (honestly probably the most extensive on the web, put together over the years).

Prime Mover Motor Blocks

Greg Elmassian web site on large scale trains and garden railroads, cigars, and computers
elmassian.com elmassian.com

Greg
Click to expand...
Thanks, but I still don't see the procedure for removing the wheels after the center screw is removed. Not sure if it requires all center screws per side being removed to fix (lap) one wheel, how to disconnect the wheel from the linkage, and also what to do with the linkage to the cylinder.
 
Small tip, if I can make a suggestion. Before you start, take pictures of what you are doing in each step. That way, hopefully, you will know exactly what went where and how the various bits were positioned
 
Jim; I have a K28 which has the same electronics as you use. Take what im saying with a grain of salt but mine has done that when i run it hard or full throttle. I have concluded it is the airwire board overheating and shutting down. I avoid full bore running. even at 14+v it is not a fast running engine. check out your airwire manual. probably im wrong but its a thought. boB
 
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