MFX decoder sound on analogue power...?

Zerogee

Zerogee

Clencher's Bogleman
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I'm having a bit of an odd problem with a new MFX-decoder M/LGB loco, and am hoping that some of you who know your way around the idiosyncrasies of the MFX decoders may be able to help....?

It's a virtually new loco, the most recent MFX release of the stumpy little "Kleine Dicke" Borsig (the one that some people call the "Spremberger"). I bought it brand new a couple of years back, but am thinking about selling it on as part of my ongoing "reorganisation and rationalisation" plans to thin my collection a little.

I've run it a couple of times on my own Massoth DCC system, and have also taken it along to a friend's layout which has a new Marklin CS3 control unit; in both cases it worked fine, all sounds fully accessible (and on the CS3 controller it did the "MFX thing" and popped up automatically on the system as soon as it was put on the track), so I'm pretty sure that all is good with the loco and its decoder. Nothing has been changed or adjusted in the way of decoder CVs on the loco, everything is still set at the as-delivered factory settings (including the loco address at the default "3").

My roller test track has a switch so that I can toggle between DC analogue (LGB 1-amp power pack) and Massoth DCC and back, at the flick of the switch, without having to disturb the loco or take it on and off the track.

So, here's the weird bit: I can run the loco on DCC (Massoth), with the sound working fine; if I then switch my test rollers to analogue DC, the sound continues to work. However once I take the loco off the track and put it back on again, switch the DC power off and then back on, or even just let the loco sit stationary for a few seconds with the DC controller turned to zero, then it seems to "forget" the sound setting and the sound on DC is NOT working after that. Put the test track back to DCC control, and the sound is OFF, but can be switched back on via F6 on the Navigator. Repeat the process, after running with the sound on DCC the loco seems to "remember" to have the sound on when switched to DC, but then forgets it again a few seconds after stopping.

Does anybody here have any experience of this particular problem, or have any idea what is going on? Is it something to do with the heirarchy of protocols within the MFX decoder?

I'm wondering whether switching the MFX protocol off might help, so the decoder isn't looking for that in the first instance... but wanted to ask the question here before I start fiddling with any CVs.

If I was keeping the loco then it wouldn't be a problem because I would be running it on DCC, where it's fine as it is; however I do have someone possibly interested in buying it from me who runs entirely analogue, but naturally wants the running sounds to work on DC (as indeed it should, LGB do state that the sound should function on DC as supplied from the factory).

Awaiting any thoughts with interest, and thanks in advance!
Jon.
 
If CV 50 has not been altered:
The loco will 'look' for MFX, DCC, Analogue in that order.. Once it finds (and responds) to a particular protocol, it 'locks' to that protocol for that session. - But will normally respond to something lower in the hierarchy.

I think you will find that sound is disabled under analogue, by default. - It certainly was when these decoders were first released.

Because you are seamlessly changing from one power-source to another (at least, as far as the electronics are concerned) the loco will keep going, and doing what it is, ie. sound etc.
Once you switch off, and back on, it will then do the 'protocol search', discover it is on analogue power, and the sound will be disabled.

I am 'away from the office', so do not have any documentation to hand, I am afraid..

People forget these are not 'Massoth' decoders, and start tweaking the CV's they know from years of LGB and Massoth. - This is never good.

PhilP.
 
Later MLGB locos are advertised as sound works on analogue as standard - something which was not the case some time back. Not sure when this changed but if you look at past LGB catalogues online you will see the reference in the last couple of years.....
 
AustrianNG said:
Later MLGB locos are advertised as sound works on analogue as standard - something which was not the case some time back. Not sure when this changed but if you look at past LGB catalogues online you will see the reference in the last couple of years.....
Click to expand...

Yes, that's how I understand it too.... will have to check the catalogue listing for the Borsig, but it's certainly one of the more recent releases.

Jon.
 
PhilP said:
If CV 50 has not been altered:
The loco will 'look' for MFX, DCC, Analogue in that order.. Once it finds (and responds) to a particular protocol, it 'locks' to that protocol for that session. - But will normally respond to something lower in the hierarchy.

I think you will find that sound is disabled under analogue, by default. - It certainly was when these decoders were first released.

Because you are seamlessly changing from one power-source to another (at least, as far as the electronics are concerned) the loco will keep going, and doing what it is, ie. sound etc.
Once you switch off, and back on, it will then do the 'protocol search', discover it is on analogue power, and the sound will be disabled.

I am 'away from the office', so do not have any documentation to hand, I am afraid..

People forget these are not 'Massoth' decoders, and start tweaking the CV's they know from years of LGB and Massoth. - This is never good.

PhilP.
Click to expand...

Thanks Phil; yes, I know there are a lot of differences between MFX and "standard" DCC decoders, including the heirarchy of protocol searches, which is why I haven't fiddled around with any CVs yet but asked the question on here in case anyone else has had this particular situation occur.
As per Paul's post, I'll have to check if the Kleine Dicke is one of those listed as being supposed to have the sound active under DC.

Certainly my tests today indicate that the decoder "remembers" to have the sound on for a short period, then "forgets" it again.

Anyone know offhand what the CV setting should be to ensure the sound stays active on DC, and whether the situation will be improved by turning the MFX protocol off entirely? I want to leave the DCC option active, so that the loco runs with sound on both DCC or DC, but don't mind disabling the MFX if that will solve the problem....?

Jon.
 
Well, the manual referenced says: The built-in sound functions come from the factory inactive for analog operation.

To me that means not turned on, not that it is impossible in analog mode.

The fact that it makes sounds on DC under some conditions would encourage me to seek a programming solution.

Greg
 
Greg Elmassian said:
Well, the manual referenced says: The built-in sound functions come from the factory inactive for analog operation.

To me that means not turned on, not that it is impossible in analog mode.

The fact that it makes sounds on DC under some conditions would encourage me to seek a programming solution.

Greg
Click to expand...

Yes Greg, that's exactly what I'm thinking... it's turned off as a default, but it's still there in the decoder, just need to find the right CV to reactivate it hopefully.... couldn't see the one that does it in the CV list in the manual.

Jon.
 
Looking at the manual for the decoder on the LGB website CVs 13 and 14 determine which functions are active in analog operation. CV 13 determines F1-F8 and CV 14 is for lights and F9-F15.

Then looking at the 20752 manual these appear to be bitwise switches just like we're familiar with in CV 29 with zero being off and 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, and 128 being on. For instance, according to the manual in addition to lights, smoke, F7, is the only function among F1-F15 that operates in analog operation from the factory. The factory default for CV13 is 64 which corresponds to bit 7 (F7) of CV 13 being "on". The default for CV 14 is 1, lights on (bit 1 on) and F9-F15 (bits 2 through 8) all off.

It looks like you want to set CV13 to enable F8 (sound on/off) + F7 (smoke) + F6 (Operating sounds) as a minimum. This would be 128+64+32 = 224. One question I wonder about is whether F8 actually needs to be set on. Sound is on by default in mfx and activating F8 turns sound off. So, maybe CV13 = 64+32 = 96 is what is needed. Finally, you'll need to experiment with the "bells and whistles" (sorry couldn't resist ;)) to see if they come on permanently or turning them on allows reed switch activation by track magnets. Assuming the loco has reed switches.

Edit added: Thanks Jon, for bringing up the question. I learned some valuable info looking into this!
 
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Hi Jon,

I hope that you are successful with phils2um' suggestions. I am a little puzzled as to why Maerklin would have switched off the sound function in DC mode yet in newer models it works. There must have been an issue of some kind with the chip. I do not believe that they would have arbitrarly switched the sound off in DC mode. I recall reading about Maerklin having problems with certain chips some time back. Unfortunately I cannot find where I read about it!

Anyway good luck with the experiment.

Regards

Martin
 
phils2um said:
Looking at the manual for the decoder on the LGB website CVs 13 and 14 determine which functions are active in analog operation. CV 13 determines F1-F8 and CV 14 is for lights and F9-F15.

Then looking at the 20752 manual these appear to be bitwise switches just like we're familiar with in CV 29 with zero being off and 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, and 128 being on. For instance, according to the manual in addition to lights, smoke, F7, is the only function among F1-F15 that operates in analog operation from the factory. The factory default for CV13 is 64 which corresponds to bit 7 (F7) of CV 13 being "on". The default for CV 14 is 1, lights on (bit 1 on) and F9-F15 (bits 2 through 8) all off.

It looks like you want to set CV13 to enable F8 (sound on/off) + F7 (smoke) + F6 (Operating sounds) as a minimum. This would be 128+64+32 = 224. One question I wonder about is whether F8 actually needs to be set on. Sound is on by default in mfx and activating F8 turns sound off. So, maybe CV13 = 64+32 = 96 is what is needed. Finally, you'll need to experiment with the "bells and whistles" (sorry couldn't resist ;)) to see if they come on permanently or turning them on allows reed switch activation by track magnets. Assuming the loco has reed switches.

Edit added: Thanks Jon, for bringing up the question. I learned some valuable info looking into this!
Click to expand...


Thanks Phil, that's very useful and just the thing I was looking for, I hope!
If anyone else has any more input then please post it, otherwise I will start to fiddle around with CV13 later today..... ;)
Not too worried about the "bells and whistles", the loco doesn't appear to have any reed switches anyway (the Borsig is a very basic budget loco, the cheapest one ever to be released with an MFX decoder I think), just want to get the operating sounds going properly on DC; it would be nice to get the brief whistle "peep" on moving off from a standing start if anyone knows how to do that, but that would just be a bonus!

Jon.
 
HI Jon,

Another problem may arise. After some more thought, the starting voltage in analog operation may also be an issue. The old LGB sound boards (and constant lighting) needed at least something like 5V to function. They had batteries or delays built into their analog control boards that kept the locos from moving until the voltage was high enough.

You may need to tweek the "Minimum speed", CV2 that sets the starting voltage, and/or "Minimum speed, analog DC", CV176 which I assume does the same for analog operation. Although I see the default for CV176 is already set pretty high at 25 (range is 0-255) so it may not be an issue.

Once again, learned something new about these decoders!
 
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My 'Google-Fu' is not working.. :(

i am unable to find the decoder manual? :rolleyes:
 
Here's the decoder manual:


Here's the manual for 20752:


MTheStrong said:
I am a little puzzled as to why Maerklin would have switched off the sound function in DC mode yet in newer models it works.
Click to expand...
Could be because they eliminated external volume controls for a while. So, there was no way to turn the sound down or off if you didn't have access to DCC equipment.
 
Thanks Phil, and everyone else - good point about the volume control, by the way.... hadn't thought of it that way?

Jon.
 
Further to previous posts.... just had a go at sorting the loco out, and run into a snag - I can read CVs fine, but it won't seem to accept any changes to them? When I try to enter a new CV value, an "X" comes up next to the CV number on the Navvy screen, and reading the CV again shows that it hasn't been changed. There is obviously something (probably simple) that I'm missing - do the MFX decoders have a programming lock?

System: Massoth, with the loco on the programming track.

I used the system a few days ago to change a couple of CVs on a fairly old green-PCB XLS (pre- the introduction of programming locks on them) and that worked just fine.

Any further help appreciated, chaps! :)

Jon.
 
Thank you for the links..

Jon,
You are on a dedicated programming track?

Try turning off MFX in CV 50..

PhiP.
 
PhilP said:
Thank you for the links..

Jon,
You are on a dedicated programming track?

Try turning off MFX in CV 50..

PhiP.
Click to expand...

That's the problem, Phil - I can't seem to change CV50, or anything else for that matter..... :wondering:

And yes, it's on the prog track, not the "main".

I know that I've successfully done CV changes on MFX decoders before, because I turned the MFX option off on my VIk a couple of years ago. The one in the Borsig doesn't seem to want to play, however.

Jon.
 
Lights, sound, and smoke off?

I have not spotted a programming lock option.. Post Office run, will look in a bit..
 
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