Massoth 'XLS' Decoder shutdown

[Tim Brien]

A friend has fitted Massoth 'XLS' decoders to two LGB locomotives, a #2085D Mallet and a #2018 Mogul. Everything ran fine for a few weeks and then an issue arose with both decoders. After about 30 minutes running the loco would shutdown with no input from the cab. Several seconds later the loco would move off at the speed setting prior to shutdown. Sound then needs to be manually turned back on. This happens no matter whether the loco was running light or with a small load, on both gradients and on a dead flat track layout. After initial shutdown the loco would repeat the shutdown only minutes later as obviously heat had built up in the decoder. Maximum current draw per loco, running with a load was just over one amp each loco. This is well within the operating spec of 3 amps for the 'XLS'.

The local Massoth distributor advised him that the 'LS' has a shutdown issue. I believe that the same electrical components for sound amplification are used on the 'LS' and 'XLS'. The friend gets more runtime with the sound turned off than with sound on. The locomotives will still shutdown even when operating with sound turned off. It seems that the decoder in each case is suffering an overheat shutdown situation. The scenario is evident both on sunny days and overcast days.

The friend has no issues with two locomotives, both with NCE decoders operating on the same track at the same time as the Massoth fitted locomotives. The Massoth loco simply shuts down with the NCE fitted loco remaining running. This implies the fault lay in the Massoth decoder installation and not a fault with the DCC central station (10 amp NCE). Also, the locomotives shutdown even when the cab is turned off, implying that the cab is not at fault. Every time it is the Massoth loco thats shuts down, leaving the NCE fitted locomotives (a LGB Forney and an Aristo twin motor diesel, both with sound) running.

I had intended fitting 'XLS' decoders to my LGB fleet, but until this issue is resolved then I will be keeping my wallet in my pocket. A distributor for another manufacturer advised that overheat shutdown was a general issue with sound chips and that he usually fits a heatsink to his decoders to cure the problem. No history of Massoth decoder overheat shutdowns on the English Massoth forum, so is this a new problem?????

 

[dunnyrail]

I have to say that I have fitted both LGB double motored locomotives and Piko ones with none of the issues that you raise. I wonder what version you are using, could they be new ones that have software issues that could be resolved by a Massoth Download. Have you raised this with Massoth direct in Germany by email? I have usually found them to be good when raising issues.
JonD

 

[Tim Brien]

Jon,
the decoders were purchased only a few months ago. The one fitted to the Mallet was a version 2.1. The one fitted to the mogul was a version 2.2.

While purchased as new stock only three months ago, it is conceivable the Mallet decoder could be several years old. The friend has upgraded the software to version 2.6.

The decoder fitted to the mogul is actually a replacement decoder from the manufacturer distributor. The original, purchased around two months ago had a motor control issue with no power output from speed step '9' to speed step '21'. There was actually no power output in the reverse direction between these speed steps (normal in forward direction). The decoder was replaced under warranty by an 'XLS' which was not set at factory settings (used perhaps?). It is the replacement decoder (2.2) that has been upgraded to latest software, 2.7.

The maximum current draw is just over one amp per loco. It seems that the decoders are shutting down due overtemp. While purchased new only months ago, these decoders are possibly several years old.

 

[Cliff George]

Hello Tim,

I'm guessing this isn't going to help much but I have spotted a similar problem with two Massoth LS decoders I have fitted to LGB single motor diesels. The problem may be the same as your friends but it is very hard to tell. There was another chap on here who reported something similar (can't remember who - sorry)

Both of these will occasionally slow down and stop and then set off again for no apparent reason. I have no similar problems with any of my other types of decoders, Lenz, ESU and native LGB.

It didn't seem to me that the issue was anything to do with heat, but again it is hard to tell, I couldn't see any correlation between run time, ambient temperature etc, but again it is hard to tell. I concluded that the decoder was incorrectly invoking the 'brake on DC' feature of the decoder.

It did seem that on almost every occasion the problem occured at the boundary of a detection section, or power district.

I emailed Massoth in Germany but didn't get at reply (I have to say that every other time I have emailed them about something else they have replied). One of the things I suggested was to provide some way of switching off the 'brake on DC' feature if it is not needed.

I solved the problem by fitting a decoder from another manufacturer and like you I won't be getting anymore of these Massoth sound decoders until I get positive news that the problem has been fixed.

 

[beavercreek]

ooooooerrrr
I have just fitted two XLS decoders to work firstly under DC control until I change part of the layout to DCC. I will test to see if they exhibit the same problem when working under analogue operation....here's hoping........:

 

[muns]

There is a thread on the Massoth forum relating to this issue

http://massoth.gotdns.com/forumen/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=337&sid=e135047e945aadfeeb8652d5f17d30ee

Tim, I take it that Gary is your friend you mention here?

 

[Cliff George]

Maybe one of the issues discussed in this thread is related:

http://www.gscalecentral.net/tm?m=144146

 

[Tim Brien]

Cliff,
the 'LS' does have a shutdown issue. As the 'XLS' uses similar componentry then it does not suprise me that my friend has the problem. Apparently, a common problem with another German brandname as no heatsink fitted to that make. I believe that the decoder really needs a heatsink to correct this issue. The local distributor for that brandname fits a coin to the decoder board (h.o. scale) and it solves the overheating problem.

The problem is intermittent in that it will reoccur but may take anywhere from half an hour to an hour to occur and then repeatedly shuts down every few minutes afterwards. This to me indicates that the decoder is heating up and cannot disperse the heat generated. Problem is not related to load or ambient temperature.

Locomotives both run perfectly on analogue DC.

Mark,
yes, Gary is the person involved. Strange that he has two similar age decoders from the same seller and both have the same issues. As stated earlier, although purchased new only a few months ago, I am not sure that these are recent production and could be up to several years old.

 

[Tim Brien]

Cliff,
I remember reading that issue with the Piko locomotive. In this situation the decoder performs perfectly right up to the point of shutting down. It simply stops dead on the tracks. After around ten seconds it starts moving again at the speed setting prior to shutting down. Once it has initially shutdown and restarted it then continues to shutdown every few minutes afterwards. It occurs on two locomotives with the same decoder and the same shutdown problem.

 

[Cliff George]

Hello Tim,

Thanks for the info, I'll try a heat sink.

I guess that the issue I have is not the same as your firiends given that I don't get a dead stop. I get a gentle decelaration to zero, and then a gentle acceleration back to the original speed.

 

[beavercreek]

Locomotives both run perfectly on analogue DC.

Tim
You say that they work fine on analogue ......okay, no need to test that then.
I will try the locos on the DCC test bench and run them for an hour or so to see if they show the same symptoms as you are getting. One is in an Aristocraft Class 66 Diesel the other is in an aristo FA1 (will be taking it out of this loco to put in another but it is good enough to test). D
Do you have smoke running and lights when the card shuts down or just the sound?

 

[beavercreek]

Hello Tim,

Thanks for the info, I'll try a heat sink.

I guess that the issue I have is not the same as your firiends given that I don't get a dead stop. I get a gentle decelaration to zero, and then a gentle acceleration back to the original speed.

Hi Cliff
maybe you have your cvs set for momentum acceleration/decelaration and Tim's friend does not....just wondering.....

 

[mike]

tim, dose the decoda shut down when used on a lgb /massoth system?
could it possably just be that the decoda needs setting to "the nce" protacls for running on a "nce" system?

 

[muns]

Hello Tim,

Thanks for the info, I'll try a heat sink.

I guess that the issue I have is not the same as your firiends given that I don't get a dead stop. I get a gentle decelaration to zero, and then a gentle acceleration back to the original speed.

Isnt the Break on DC function only active when the decoder is set for DCC operation only?

 

[muns]

Tim,

Is it possible to get details of the contents of the white label stuck to the decoder?

 

[Cliff George]

Hi Cliff
maybe you have your cvs set for momentum acceleration/decelaration and Tim's friend does not....just wondering.....

Possibly, but I doubt it. The problem, occasional slow down and start up, occurs both when I'm running under computer control and when I'm not. When running under computer control the computer will turn off all momentum in the decoder (using the function that allows this), it controls all of the momentum itself. So I run both with momentum on and with it off and get the same symtoms.

What could account for the difference is that I have a power buffer fitted and maybe Tim's friend does not.

 

[Cliff George]

Isnt the Break on DC function only active when the decoder is set for DCC operation only?

Yes I think so, and the problem decoders are set for DCC operation only, I believe it has to be that way because I've got a power buffer fitted (although I'm not able to check that out to confirm that at this time).

 

[beavercreek]

What could account for the difference is that I have a power buffer fitted and maybe Tim's friend does not.

Cliff, am I correct in assuming that the power buffer that you use is a capacitor based one. Is it the Massoth produced one or your own design?
This is not pertinent to this thread but I feel that I will need them for track problems etc.

 

[mbendebba]

here is my suggestions for Tim's friend and for Cliff. Change CV49 to 0 instead of 2, and check if that corrects the problem. If it does, reset CV49 to 2 and set CV 63 to to 128. I have encountered this problem before and I explored various solutions and this solution seem to work and make sense based upon what I saw was happening with the current draw dispayed by the navigator.

Mohammed

 

[Cliff George]

Thanks Mohammed I will give that a try.

I think what you are saying is that there is some issue with the digital load control, correct?

What does CV 63 do it is not listed in either the LS or XLS manuals.