Long freight trains

[Jono]

Hi guys.

I am just wondering how one usually scales down long freight trains.

As an example, a freight train (ore in this case) from back "home" in South Africa, scaled exactly in Z gauge, yes Z, would be just over 18 METERS long.. ...

and scaled down to 32:1, would be a tad over 128m ....

Is there a convention to do this "realistically" or is the whole bang shoot of these sorts of trains avoided ?

Despite the rain network in South Africa being dilapidated, wrong gauge (hhmm usually - there are at least 4 gauges i am aware of, and no, am not going to find out unless I actually go to some of them) , and hardly working most of the time now, we certainly have some oddities.. .. We have a 50kV AC line for the ore train, whose Locos consist of electrics AND Diesel-electrics (up to 12 per train), then we have a very wide gauge DC line, twin track, with the loaded freight rolling downhill providing most of the current for the empty up-line .... And then small logging lines whose loaded wagons are hoisted COMPLETELY onto "adapter" wagons to bring them up to what they call Standard gauge of 3'6" ...


I am just curious.

Thanks

Jonathan

 

[Gizzy]

Hullo Jono,

I guess one finds a compromise, depending on the length of your line. My sidings and loops were eventually tweaked to fit a Bo-Bo loco, and either a train of five twin axle wagons, or three bogie wagons. In G scale, you are looking at 7 feet/2 metres for trains of this length of consist?

You need to look at the space you have for the layout and then design a plan to fit.

For example, I was constrained for space so I used R1/R2 curves. A very large loco looks odd, so I used V52 and 2095 diesels and a 2-6-2 steam loco on my railway, as well as smaller engines.


Worked for me....

 

[cbeckett]

Well, I have no useful advice on downscaling to offer! But an observation - 4 times a day, an ore train goes up/down our line. I've tried counting, 63-65 LONG cars. Moving VERY slowly, they take 20 minutes to go past the bottom of my garden. Usually 3 locos up-front. Sound is brilliant. Must Youtube it!

To do that to scale would probably need an acre.

And, totally irrelevant - the latest trains coming down from the North, have no drivers - controlled from a Base in Perth! There again, most of the huge ore trucks/extractors don't have drivers - they are out of harms way 1000km away. Amazes me.

Have a good'un, cobbers!

 

[trammayo]

I would think the simple answer is that you cut your suit according to your cloth!

Unless you have very large radii, sharp curves (and my line has some R1's) put strain on all parts of your train - from loco (gears, wheels, and motor), to rolling stock couplings at least.

Then there is the "string line" effect - light stock might tend to derail as the consist being drawn wants to take the shortest route - a straight line. Plus, there is wear on your curves - all causing rolling resistance.

It is all a compromise but it comes down as 'horses for courses' - and if it looks right, then it is right. There is a prototype for everything!

 

[dunnyrail]

I am not sure that you can properly scale Freight Trains in that respect. I am planning to build a Small 00 Line based on a Colliey Branch in Yorkshire. I will only be able to run 8 Wagon Freights plus a Brake Van (Caboose to the guys over the Pond) so very restricted. I have two ways of justifying this in my own mind.

Scenario 1
I assume that all trains are 1/10th of their actual length. Therefore my Max Freight would be an 80 (8 Wagons to my 1/10th Rule) Wagon Load. Because I wish to have some Random Factor in the working of this small line I will creating a Daily Order of Empties for the Colliery, for Daily read Operating Session.

That order could be say 400 Empties in the Day thus 5 x 8 Wagons. This will be even more complecated by dividing that Order into the 3 Kinds of Wagons that will be Loaded for differing Types Of Destinations. This will be covered by Hoppers, 21Tonners and Conventional 16 Tonners.

Thus the order is now possibly 100 Hoppers (10), 50 21 Tonners (5) and 250 16 Tonnes (25). These requirements cannot be met by just the 5 Trains as the differing Wagons all arrive from different Locations thus on differing Trains. What this then does is to generate additional Trips rather than the expected 5 Trains. The above order would generate 2 Trains for Hoppers (load 8 and 2), 1 Train for 21 Tonners (load 5) and finally 4 Trains for 16 Tonners (3 of Load 3 and 1 of Load 1).

Of course that would look rather silly with the Trains of just 2 and 1 Wagon, so the Trains would be made up to average out the delivery of empties. Plus of course the Hoopers and 21 Tonners are Longer than 16 Tonners and my Sidings only take 8x 16 Tonners and a Brake. All this does take a bit of working out but is the closest that I can figure for effective working. I can see no reason why this similar situation could not be used in say an American Context to reduce the Length of a Big Freight Train to manageable proportions. The percentage could be varied to suit your line, after all we are all just Imagineering our Railway.

Scenario 2
I assume that there is a very steep gradient on the apprach to my Colliery and Train Lengths are rstricted to 8 16 Tonners, 6 Hopers or 21 Tonners.

Fortunately for my own Garden Line based on the Selketalbahn in Germany I have few problems. In the old days of the East most of the Freight was moved in Mixed Trains with a normal load of 2 to 3 Wagons tagged onto the Train, ocasionally there were more. Once the link via Stiege was rebuilt the Rollblock Trains were again frequently 3 or 4 as I believe more Wagins needed to be Double Headed. Yes 2 of those 2-10-2t's thrashing up the Bank to Stiege, what a sight.

I hope this little missive can give some inspiration. After all imagineering is what we are all about.
JonD

 

[PhilP]

I would guess you will have to scale-down the numbers..
Size of layout. Radius of curves. Adhesion of locomotive(s).
It will look silly if there is only two foot between the front, and back, of the same formation!
Curves, and adhesion, amount to the same thing.. You don't want a stalled train with the loco slowly grinding hollows in the track 'somewhere' down the garden!!

I am trying to get Martin to sort out the Pensy hopper-sets he has.. *think* we can get to about 19 with what we have.. Whether a US outline A/B set will drag this round the (uphill) outer curve on the layout is to be seen.

 

[Rhinochugger]

scaled exactly in Z gauge, yes Z, would be just over 18 METERS long.. ...

Mmmmmm .................... Z gauge in the garden could be challenging. I have an early book on garden rialways which features an N gauge garden railway, but with Z you could have issues .............. O0 O0 O0 O0 O0

 

[pugwash]

Another limitation is going to be the sheer cost of buying enough wagons

 

[PhilP]

Another limitation is going to be the sheer cost of buying enough wagons

Where there's a G'railer..

"No, they're not all mine Dear!"

 

[Robert Howard]

How about T gauge then? I wounder how well the magnets would work in the garden

My office overlooks the Midland Mainline in Derby and I often see real life formations which would look wrong on a model railway.

Just saw two Class 20s (nose to nose obviously) pulling two tank wagons and yesterday a class 66 with three preserved 1960s diesels.

 

[Rhinochugger]

How about T gauge then? I wounder how well the magnets would work in the garden

My office overlooks the Midland Mainline in Derby and I often see real life formations which would look wrong on a model railway.

Just saw two Class 20s (nose to nose obviously) pulling two tank wagons and yesterday a class 66 with three preserved 1960s diesels.

Yerst , T gauge has lost it, in my book

As for an office overlooking the mainline - you're allowed to look out of the window ?? ??? ???

But I'm all for oddities being replicated in model form. I remember seeing London bound East Coast express at Hitchin with the Class 91 loco running blunt end first, which meant it was paired sharp end to sharp end with the DVT. I could only assume that the train loco had failed at the other end, and the 91 was a rescue engine. It looked even more unusual because the rescue 91 was in a different livery.

 

[Ian_S]

You can get a decent length of freight in "G"

https://youtu.be/DUdg9RJ4SI4

https://youtu.be/Izf_oiwdW3o

 

[Rhinochugger]

Ah, black puddings

 

[pugwash]

Oooh, pud porn
Alright, so mine is a Shell.
And three of those, ahem, Mobiloil.
The longest train I ran was a Piko BR218 in red & grey pulling seven of the Playmobil Panorama Express coaches (with metal wheelsets) which looked really nice. It wouldn't have fitted in the passing loop though :

 

[chris m01]

This is the longest train I can do - http://youtu.be/o5bvySPhKdw . The video shows my shortest trains first and you have to go to 42 seconds in to see my longest. Normally I run trains that are 16 - 18 foot long. This is the right size for me and my garden. It takes a long time to assemble a long train.

 

[ntpntpntp]

I tend to subscribe to the view that an odd number of coaches just somehow seems better proportioned than an even number when I'm having to run foreshortened representations of long passenger trains. Certainly seems to look better on my N gauge layout to run a set of say 5 or 7 rather than 6 or 8. Think I've read other folk expressing similar thoughts over the decades.

No so important with freight where the individual wagons are shorter and I can get a reasonable number into a given fiddle yard or passing loop track.

 

[playmofire]

That's an interesting thought. I'll follow it up.

 

[KeithT]

I like running long trains whether freight or passenger. When I built the railway I had that in mind, it is a level 40m+ double track with R3 and 5 curves.
Normally, I run 86 to 100 axles mostly bogie stock.
I am always amazed to see the Bachmann Annies cope with 86 axles even though in effect they are 4-4-0s because the centre drivers don't touch the rails.

 

[The Devonian]

Unless you are able, or even prepared, to store a train outdoors or in a long train shed/barn (USA) then a very long train will take a while to set out. I feel that eventually most folks would get tired of that having to do this on a regular basis - I know I would.

I model the North American prototype, principally 1:29scale but I have some 'olde tyme' 1:22.5 to ring the changes.
The way - and I am sure many here also have done this - is to create your own railway name, or a branch or short line where you alone make the decisions . (Known as Rule 8 on this particular Forum). This conveniently allows you to avoid the very long trains that the prototype generally runs.

The idea - for most of us is to have fun and get pleasure in our railroad operating. If you want the hassle of railroading then get a job with the real ones.

 

[dunnyrail]

Unless you are able, or even prepared, to store a train outdoors or in a long train shed/barn (USA) then a very long train will take a while to set out. I feel that eventually most folks would get tired of that having to do this on a regular basis - I know I would.

I model the North American prototype, principally 1:29scale but I have some 'olde tyme' 1:22.5 to ring the changes.
The way - and I am sure many here also have done this - is to create your own railway name, or a branch or short line where you alone make the decisions . (Known as Rule 8 on this particular Forum). This conveniently allows you to avoid the very long trains that the prototype generally runs.

The idea - for most of us is to have fun and get pleasure in our railroad operating. If you want the hassle of railroading then get a job with the real ones.

Fully agree with your thoughts re Rule 8 and getting out Long Trains if you do not have a convinient Shed to store them in Track.

However your final remark ignores the fact that 'hassle of railroading' as you put it is what floats so many of our Boats. If you were able to visit my line for a TImetable Session with a few of my like minded crewe you might think differently. However I do understand the joy of the 'Glass of Wine and a Train Going Round in Circles' guys n gals.
JonD