Linking shuttle lines and multiple options for a shuttle

[beavercreek]

I am embarking on a little change to the layout and I was wondering if the knowledge base out there can confirm that I am doing everything in order or if I am not, or could do it better, slide a little knowledge my way to avoid any disaster:wave:

At the moment ( the dark side does lurk) I operate analogue TE using three separate receivers. I have one mainline with a few passing loops. I also have two shuttles operating independently, one as a self-contained separate quarry and another which I call the 'local' line which also operates separately with its own multiple stub ends. This has worked fine so far.

In the order of things.....I am in the throws of changing that!

I am going to have a linking section that will allow the quarry to join to the local line and also to add a sawmill extension to link to the local and feed the other sawmill at one end of the local. AND possibly a wye section for manual use, although that is not set in stone at present

The diodes and shuttle units can be overridden so that everything can be controlled manually if wished.

There will be DPDT switches to totally isolate the quarry section incase of any reverse polarity switching that that might happen out of sync between the two shuttle units!
There will be SPST switches to select which shuttle end will link with which other end.
The diodes will all be set up on the one side of the track on every installation so that they all operate the same and can operate together when switched in.
The switches/points will be controlled in association with the route/diode selection
There is enough track after each diode to accomodate the length of train or loco that will use it.

I have designed up the breaker and diode diagram. It is not ot scale or even in proportion.
If there are any gaffs please, please point them out to me!

The first diagram is a general one showing diode placement
The second diagram has more detail including isolating switches, how diodes will cooperate between the different possibilities

 

[beavercreek]

So far no one has replied to my plea for confirmation or correction on how I will be progressing on this little change to the layout running.
I hope my plan is fine, it seems correct but if anyone lese has had multiple shuttle lines that have a link to each other in order to 'cross fertilise' trains then I would be grateful of your input or even if you just have some ideas on it.

 

[yb281]

Mike, if I was you I'd pm Neil Robinson and/or Mike (Dutchelm). From experience they are the electrical wizards who are only too willing to help with such things.

 

[beavercreek]

Mike, if I was you I'd pm Neil Robinson and/or Mike (Dutchelm). From experience they are the electrical wizards who are only too willing to help with such things.

Will do Mel....good thinking...........strange really

 

[yb281]

Mike, if I was you I'd pm Neil Robinson and/or Mike (Dutchelm). From experience they are the electrical wizards who are only too willing to help with such things.

Will do Mel....good thinking...........strange really

 

[dutchelm]

Mike, if I was you I'd pm Neil Robinson and/or Mike (Dutchelm). From experience they are the electrical wizards who are only too willing to help with such things.

Will do Mel....good thinking...........strange really

I must admit I had a look at this when it was first put on. First thoughts, too many manual switches for the human brain to understand. It must be idiot proof to work properly. Can you not use switches on the points so that the tracks are automatically selected to the correct feeds.

 

[Cliff George]

Hello Mike,

Which shuttle units are you using? Where are they connected?

Is it still a max of two shuttle units at the same time?

Do you expect different shuttles to share common track, switching points as needed?

 

[dutchelm]

I don't use a shuttle unit. My shuttle uses an LGB decoder fitted loco.
A reed switch in the track reverses the polarity of the track using a latching relay, (LGB definition - hard reverse), the loco slows down, pauses & then accelerates in the opposite direction.
If the shuttle needs to go to a different line I use the LGB point switches to select the reed contact.

 

[Tony]

Mike it seems like one of those ideas i sometimes have had that works in my head because i designed it but works out tobe to complicated to make happen reliably. ive looked at you plans and you could be trying to split the atom for all i know ......... all i will say is "keep it simples Keep it real" what you have at the moment is perfect from a viewers prospective.
If im correct in understanding what you want to achive you could do that with my "joining up the other line loop idea" either that or go over to the DARK SIDE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:'@:thumbdown:

Tony

 

[beavercreek]

Which shuttle units are you using? Where are they connected?

They are ABC 8 amp ones from ebay and are great. They are connected by the TE receivers so over at the top right of the general plan

Is it still a max of two shuttle units at the same time?

It will always only be a max of two units at the same time, sometimes only one will be operating.

Do you expect different shuttles to share common track, switching points as needed?

As in the detail plan they share common track and that is why I have put in the isolating switches eg If the quarry section is going about its business confined to the quarry area but I want the 'local' to have the Pointrock saw mill spur operating then they will be isolated from each other.
BUT if I want the quarry train to go onto the local line the the local shuttle unit wil need to be switched off to allow the current to now come from the quarry shuttle.

As to switching the points...the points in the quarry and sawmil area will be done using a swicthing box near to where the shuttle units/receivers are situated. The ones right over by Arrowhead will be done witha switching box nearter to them. ( I could of course run tons of cable all the way back from Arrowhead so that the control of the points was ALL at the control area near to the quarry) This last idea, although heavy on cable would 'centralise' control of all shuttle operating!

 

[beavercreek]

I've looked at you plans and you could be trying to split the atom for all i know

With this plan.......I WILL DOMINATE THE WORLD....THE WORLD, I TELL YOU!!! :

If im correct in understanding what you want to achive you could do that with my "joining up the other line loop idea" either that or go over to the DARK SIDE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:'@:thumbdown:

Hi Tony, yes the 'dark side' would be an easy way to overcome most of this but the use of auto shuttles and DCC seems to have issues as well!
At present, using analogue, your/my idea for two full loop running does not overcome the self contained quarry auto-shuttle section being 'allowed' to come onto the local line (or even the local loop ) if in auto shuttle mode. See my answer to Cliff's question about how actual control would be implemented as I can already see that I will have to run a lot of cable back from Arrowhead to where the TE receivers are situated, make everything control-wise, nice and centralised. Even with another full loop I would have to do this so that the logging traind could go into a stub spur at Arrowhead.

 

[Gizzy]

Looks awfully complex!

I think I would need to break it down into each section and work it out piece by piece at a time.

To try comprehend the whole shebang in one go is just too much for one bloke (who doesn't do multi-tasking) to take in....

 

[Tony]

Mike
i ment i think you are trying to achive (as i am) lots of varible action happening at the same time some automaticly. (and the easyest in terms of reliability and maintainence) and your seconded loop will do this. BUT if i understand you wanting to connect multi shuttles to use a common peice of track shirly would this simple diagram be better

im proberly trying to teach you to suck eggs but my take on your dilema is
if you had a diode at each end of each spur depending on how each "isolated" point was pointing one shuttle unit would be needed to run any number of lines ( you cant have more than one train on a line anyway) if a train was stoped changing a point would isolate it and allow another to be un isolated, or in Beaver creek speak the switching of one of two points near your saw mill would decide weather the station had use of the shuttle, the logging line, or the quarry to take either train to arrowpoint where an isolated point would store or return said train to any destination,
If a TE point remote was used you could sit in the middle with a glass of pims and shuttle to your hearts content.
Ok so going from quarry to logging direct is not posible it would be via arrowhead
would that work
Tony
Arh just reread like wot i wrote
first [style="color: #000000;"]prob
making sure the isolted train when it becomes un islolated moves off in the right direction[style="color: #000000;"]

 

[beavercreek]

Looks awfully complex!

I think I would need to break it down into each section and work it out piece by piece at a time.

To try comprehend the whole shebang in one go is just too much for one bloke (who doesn't do multi-tasking) to take in....

The plan also shows how it works, totally fine, at the moment. Two totally separate shuttles, one, the ' local' which has a choice of spurs at the Arrowhead end, the other the self-contained quarry line.
The complexity that I am introducing is to allow one shuttle, the quarry, to be able to venture onto the track that the 'local' uses. And for the 'local' to have two options when coming from Arrowhead; either the sawmill at Pointrock or the station at Beavercreek.
To this end there has to be isolation switches so that the two shuttles can still work independently as they do now but not cause cross-supply problems when they are linked.

So in summary:
1) If the DPDT (yellow on the plan) switch is opened and the 'local's' supply is then off, the quarry diode number 2 will be allowed 'link' with diode 4 or 5 for the quarry train roam onto the local and shuttle back and forth between Arrowhead (diode 4 or 5) and the quarry (diode 2).

1) If the point is thrown at Pointrock then the train will go to the station, if thrown the other way it will go on to the sawmill instead.

My reason for putting SPST switches in was to isolate the other diodes as I am not sure that if they are not isolated, they will affect the operation of the autoshuttle unit. If there is no problem having diodes left in circuit at ends of a shuttle that are not being passed over by a loco then there is no reasion for all of the SPST switches and these can be taken out of the whole plan!

Has anyone got a single shuttlelne that has multiple options at one end (or indeed both ends) ie spurs where the diode(s) not being passed over by the loco has no effect on the auto shuttle?

 

[Tony]

Looks awfully complex!

I think I would need to break it down into each section and work it out piece by piece at a time.

To try comprehend the whole shebang in one go is just too much for one bloke (who doesn't do multi-tasking) to take in....

The plan also shows how it works, totally fine, at the moment. Two totally separate shuttles, one, the ' local' which has a choice of spurs at the Arrowhead end, the other the self-contained quarry line.
The complexity that I am introducing is to allow one shuttle, the quarry, to be able to venture onto the track that the 'local' uses. And for the 'local' to have two options when coming from Arrowhead; either the sawmill at Pointrock or the station at Beavercreek.
To this end there has to be isolation switches so that the two shuttles can still work independently as they do now but not cause cross-supply problems when they are linked.

So in summary:
1) If the DPDT (yellow on the plan) switch is opened and the 'local's' supply is then off, the quarry diode number 2 will be allowed 'link' with diode 4 or 5 for the quarry train roam onto the local and shuttle back and forth between Arrowhead (diode 4 or 5) and the quarry (diode 2).

1) If the point is thrown at Pointrock then the train will go to the station, if thrown the other way it will go on to the sawmill instead.

My reason for putting SPST switches in was to isolate the other diodes as I am not sure that if they are not isolated, they will affect the operation of the autoshuttle unit. If there is no problem having diodes left in circuit at ends of a shuttle that are not being passed over by a loco then there is no reasion for all of the SPST switches and these can be taken out of the whole plan!

Has anyone got a single shuttlelne that has multiple options at one end (or indeed both ends) ie spurs where the diode(s) not being passed over by the loco has no effect on the auto shuttle?

WoW looks like i understood what you were going on about (great minds and all that)
if the diodes are purly a switch to tell the shuttle to change direction it wont mattter how many you have if only one is live at one time
Tony

 

[beavercreek]

Arh just reread like wot i wrote
first [style="color: #000000;"]prob
making sure the isolted train when it becomes un islolated moves off in the right direction[style="color: #000000;"]

Ahhhhh...now there is the rub. the interaction of auto shuttles and polarity!

If I link the two shuttles, as in the plan, because switches/points are fully powered, there has to be a method of isolating supply from one shuttle (the quarry) form the other (the 'local') when I am using them in the same way as I do now (self-contained). Thus the DPDT switch to achieve this. I will be using the Aristo point receivers that I have had for a couoe of years, to operate the points so that is taken care of.
It is whether I need all those SPST switcvhes to isolate the 'unused' diodes (the ones that the loco will NOT be passing over) because I am not sure if they affect the autoshuttle or not. If they don't, the plan immediately becomes a lot simpler with only the linked section between the quarry and 'local' needing to be right!

 

[beavercreek]

Thanks to all you lads Stockers, Dutchelm and especially you Tony for your valuable input.
I have had a good think, sent a pm to Neil Robinson (Merlin with the electrics!) about diodes and how they affect, or not, the shuttle unit even if they are in a point to point spur not being 'used' by a loco. If they do not affect anythimng then all those SPST switches can be removed from my plan. Here's hoping..........


I get your thing Michael (dutchelm) about track relays and it is something that I could set up using supplementary switches on certain point motors or to even make my points selective in routing power as opposed to them being at present all powered.

The linking of the two shuttles still needs a bit of thought to make sure that everything will run fine either in 'linked mode' or separate as they are now. I feel that having one route that could go from quarry to Arrowhead has power switched in wihile the one from Pointrock sawmill is switched out (and vice versa) maybe the way to go.

Perhaps this power switching could be automated so that the quarry train goes from quarry to Arrowhead then stops in one spur there. The power switches to the 'local' line the logging train then goes from the other Arrowhead spur to Pointrock sawmill (the points obviously automatically changing as well). The logging train stops there and the power switches (anf the points) to allow the quarry train to leave arrowhead and progress down to the quarry again and stop. Then the logging train leaves Pointrock mill and arrives at Arrowhead, stops and then the quarry line is switched in and the quarry loco then progresses to the other spur at Arrowhead etc etc.

 

[Gizzy]

All a diode does is allow the electrickery current to flow in one direction, so you place it or orient it, to allow the train to move away from the buffer, but stop the train before it hits the buffers. I've put an arrow in the diodes in your diagram to help explain.

In essense, it's a one way switch (or valve), so I don't think you need the SPST switches.

The Wye will need isolating fishplates in both rails. Again I've put in a break (in yellow) and an extra DPDT switch. I've assumed that this is not used with the shuttles, but with a TE to turn stock....

 

[beavercreek]

Thanks for the explanation of how a diode works Gizzy, although I already knew about that part, what I am not sure about whether the diodes that are not being employed for a route would cause the shuttle unit to sense that a train has not 'passed through' a diode when it has 'passed through on another one on the line.....
for example:
the diodes that are in the two spurs (diode 4 and diode 5), would they interfere with each other when a train, let's say 'passes through' diode 4, comes to a stop...would the shuttle just see the diode 4 activity and consequently reverse the polarity and after a wait make the train reverse out etc OR would the unit see the diode 5 as being still not 'passed through' and the train would just sit after diode 4 and the unit would not sense that it had indeed 'passed through'

 

[Dtsteam]

That will depend on how your shuttle unit works, but mine is just a timer and a polarity reversing relay so it dosen't respond to the diode sections. If yours does have some form of track detection, it may be the converse problem, in that there is already a loco in the adjacent section so it may detect that one instead of the moving one. Gosh, this is complicated. If you do end up switching power from the points, then it probaly won't matter.

If its an aristo 11091 shuttle, then it dosent care about the diodes - they are only there to stop the train until the relay reverses track polarity.