LGB69572 sound tender question.....

[Zerogee]

I've just received a second-hand 69572 tender (motorised) with sound that I acquired - quite cheaply - via evilBay; this particular model was supplied by LGB as a direct-decoder-ready item, to have a 55021 or similar plugged directly onto the sound board. The seller said it was equipped with a decoder, which is true - but the install seems to have been done in a very odd way. When I tested the unit, first on analogue and then on DCC (Massoth), in all cases the chuff sound worked fine but I wasn't getting any other sounds, such as the bell or whistle (which should be on there, according to the WAV file sample on the Champex-Linden database):
http://www.champex-linden.de/lgb_pr...0467cf6/a30105106c226c5ac12568ee003776f4.html < Link To http://www.champex-linden...ac12568ee003776f4.html

On taking the lid off the tender, I found a rather odd lash-up - for some reason the installer had chosen not to plug the 55021 decoder into the sound board as it's supposed to be, but instead had simply soldered the four wires from the decoder directly to the four-pin plug on the motor block! I assume that this explains why the motor works under DCC (as well as DC), the basic chuff sound is there but none of the function controls work - because the decoder function output isn't actually connected to the sound board in any way!

Has anyone a) got any thoughts as to WHY anyone would install it this way, and b) the best way to go about fixing it? I'm thinking that unsoldering the decoder wires and plugging it into the sound board in the correct way SHOULD get everything to work as it should?

Jon.

 

[dutchelm]

I have never seen one wired like that. I would be tempted to just cut the decoder wires off the motor & plug the decoder onto the board, not forgetting the DIP switches. You should get the whistle bell but remember there is only one output from the decoder so it will only work set to serial control.

 

[beavercreek]

It is interesting Jon as I think that the analogue board should have sensor inputs for the whistle and the bell. But if the board is like the other analogue boards then it should give a forward toot etc when moving off. Does the board have a hall sensor on one of the axles for the chuff?

Today I have been trying to get an analogue LGB Alco diesel board to operate under DC and DCC before I install it into my Rio Grande mute version. The board is one of LGB's earlier ones but has capacitor back up storage.
Now, using DC this board seems to need to have a hall sensor with magnet just to register (not even turning the axle) for the 'diesel sound' to operate, and knotches fine with the increase in voltage. It also needs sensors for the horn although it has an automatic blast on strat-up.

BUT when operating on DCC (taking the juice straight from the tracks) it 'blasts the horn once and then just does tick over/idle sounds, it seems to ignore the hall sensor completely and will not 'knotch'up with the increased speed on the navigator.
Perhaps this might be similar to your board's behaviour.
The LGB Sumpter/Uintah sound boards that I put into my Annie tenders work perfectly taking juice from the track (DC or DCC) and utilising the hall sensor for the chuff rate.
Perhaps the 'earlier' analogue sound boards had trouble with DCC which caused one or two of their functions not to....function? Whereas the later ones in the Sumpter/Uintah are fine.
How old is your tender power sound combo?

EDIT: After our phone conversation I have now worked out what is going wrong with my board or really that it is pre DCC design and cannot cope with PWM. And your conundrum is still that..sorry Jon!

 

[dutchelm]

The LGB tender is a fairly simple affair. It gets its chuff rate from the motor voltage so no Hall sensor. It only toots when it goes over a magnet or you send a signal by DCC. Its only the next step up from the "sandpaper" on the Stainz.

 

[mike]

mikes nailed it, thats the way forward, for me

 

[Zerogee]

I could be wrong but that is not a full sound card............

Looks like the "proper" card has been taken out and a standard "chuffing" unit has been put in its place......with a standard 55021 decoder.

Unsure

One of the black wires has come adrift......&:

The size and shape of the board agrees with the exploded diagram for the tender model via the Champex Linden database, so I think it is as it's supposed to be; the sockets are there on the board to directly plug the 55021 into it, what I can't figure out is why the installer hadn't done that? May just be one of these mysteries that will never be solved.....
Everyone (including both Mikes) seem to agree with my first thought about simply reinstalling the decoder as it should be - I'll give that a go and see if it works. You're right about the "loose" black wire, Paul, in fact there are two of them - what the installer has done is to disconnect two of the wires (the motor feeds) from the black four-way ribbon when he soldered the decoder wires directly to the motor block plug rather than routing them through the sound board.
Dutchelm Mike, I agree that it is not a "full-featured" sound board, but according to both the instructions and the sample WAV sound file, it should certainly have whistle and bell triggered either by track magnets (on DC) or via the function control on DCC.

Jon.

 

[Cliff George]

Do the whistle and bell work if you run a magnet under the tender?

Is it possible that the bell and whistle can't be activated by track magnets when the decoder is plugged in but the user still wanted the track magnet method to work? I've no idea if it is true or not that track magnets don't work when the decoder is plugged in correctly.

 

[Zerogee]

A quick question to confirm something that I THINK is right, but don't want to take the chance.... the dip switches are not labelled on the board as to which way is ON or OFF - now, in one direction the red switch slides ALL THE WAY to the end of its slot - I believe this is ON; the other way, they DON'T go right to the end of the slot - I think this is OFF.
In my photo in the first post, that would mean that the visible block of two switches at the top right of the board are OFF - slid to the left but not all the way to the end of the slot.
Can someone confirm this 100% for me before any magic smoke gets out?

Jon.

PS: there is also something VERY weird about the way someone has rewired the motor block plug - at the same time as connecting the four coloured decoder wires directly to it, the original black ribbon 4-way from the sound board APPEARS to have had all four connections cut, and then two of them reconnected to the WRONG PINS - the inside pair of the ribbon, which I think should go to the brown/white track pickup connections, have instead been re-soldered to the OUTER contacts of the plug, along with the decoder's green/yellow motor feeds..... so that it appears the sound board is being FED power via the MOTOR outputs of the decoder! As the old saying goes, "mysteriouser and mysteriouser...."

 

[Cliff George]

PS: there is also something VERY weird about the way someone has rewired the motor block plug - at the same time as connecting the four coloured decoder wires directly to it, the original black ribbon 4-way from the sound board APPEARS to have had all four connections cut, and then two of them reconnected to the WRONG PINS - the inside pair of the ribbon, which I think should go to the brown/white track pickup connections, have instead been re-soldered to the OUTER contacts of the plug, along with the decoder's green/yellow motor feeds..... so that it appears the sound board is being FED power via the MOTOR outputs of the decoder! As the old saying goes, "mysteriouser and mysteriouser...."

I don't think that it is weird.

The chuff sound would not work correctly otherwise. As dutchelm said, and I suspect, the chuffs are generated via varying voltage.



I'd guess that the installer understood DCC but wasn't an LGB expert or didn't have the instructions and so he/she didn't know that the decoder could be plugged onto the board and so installed the decoder in the way he/she knew to make it work.

 

[dutchelm]

I once bought a tender with the sound card missing. The previous owner had removed it to instal it in another loco. Maybe this is why the decoder was connected this way & a sound card reinstalled later.

The best way to check the DIP switches is to remove the decoder & reconnect the wiring as it should be. Then test it on analogue. If it works the switches are for DC, if it doesn't they are set for DCC.

 

[Zerogee]

Good idea re the testing, Mike, I'll give it a try tomorrow if I can find the time - a bit too tired tonight to start soldering things...

Jon.

 

[Tim Brien]

Jon,
the sound board is correct type fitted. I installed a similar board in this fashion in another installation as I did not have clearance for the direct decoder plugin. I purchased six of these tenders purely to salvage the boards when they were relatively inexpensive (not cheap but inexpensive). With my experience of the six boards they are really just toys and not proper sound boards. There is no control over chuff rate and bell/whistle are serial operated when using a type 1 LGB decoder. It may be different with the #55021 decoder.

If you wish to retain current installation and operate the bell/whistle, then follow the three leads up from the reed switch on the truck underframe. The centre wire is common, the outer wires are the return to the sound board. By connecting a wire from each function on the decoder to one each of the two outer wires mentioned, one can activate the bell or whistle. I was using a type 1 decoder (#55020) so the bell/whistle signals were serial so needed either one or two presses on the DCC Navigator/controller to activate.

The board has very little (if any) adjustment under DCC control and really is not one of LGB's finer moments. All six of my boards had very poor chuff response to power input. All boards needed almost full power to attain a reasonable chuff rate. At that point the loco was almost running full speed.

My LGB programmers would not even let me read the decoder with it attached to the sound circuit board. I had to programme the type 1 LGB decoder first and then fit. The programmer could not identify the decoder as a LGB decoder while attached to the board. I quickly lost enthusiasm for these boards and onsold them.

 

[Zerogee]

PS: there is also something VERY weird about the way someone has rewired the motor block plug - at the same time as connecting the four coloured decoder wires directly to it, the original black ribbon 4-way from the sound board APPEARS to have had all four connections cut, and then two of them reconnected to the WRONG PINS - the inside pair of the ribbon, which I think should go to the brown/white track pickup connections, have instead been re-soldered to the OUTER contacts of the plug, along with the decoder's green/yellow motor feeds..... so that it appears the sound board is being FED power via the MOTOR outputs of the decoder! As the old saying goes, "mysteriouser and mysteriouser...."

I don't think that it is weird.

The chuff sound would not work correctly otherwise. As dutchelm said, and I suspect, the chuffs are generated via varying voltage.

I'd guess that the installer understood DCC but wasn't an LGB expert or didn't have the instructions and so he/she didn't know that the decoder could be plugged onto the board and so installed the decoder in the way he/she knew to make it work.

Hi Cliff - yes, that makes sense, and may explain the rather odd setup. Thanks!
Will hopefully find some time later today or over the weekend to do some further investigation.

Tim - some good points, yes I was aware that this was not a fully-featured and sophisticated sound system, but the tender was so relatively inexpensive that it was worth getting just for a good motor block - I consider the sound board and the 55021 decoder to be nice bonuses!
It will be interesting to see if, once I've stripped it out and reinstalled it properly, the 55021 will respond better than you say your 55020 (type 1) did.

Jon.

 

[Zerogee]

Can anyone answer my question in post no.10 above, re the dip switches? I can test them as Dutchelm Mike has suggested, but it would be nice to have a confirmation from someone?

Oh, and a supplementary question re one point in Tim's reply - if I'm reinstalling the decoder as a direct plug-in as it should be, do I actually need to leave the reed switch assembly and its associated wiring in place, or could I simply remove it and consign it to the spares box for future re-use? I'm assuming that the function output from the decoder, once properly plugged in place, makes the reed switch unit superfluous (I won't ever be running this with triggering magnets)?

Jon.

 

[Tim Brien]

Jon,
long time since I played with this board but I believed the DIP switches were used for start voltage to synch loco starting to chuff.

I found the brochure. The switches are part of the start delay circuit. Two switches marked 'S2' -
*Both switches 'Off' delay circuit on, normal delay (factory preset)
*Switch '1' on, switch '2' off, delay circuit on, short delay
*Both switches 'On', delay circuit off, no delay.

Note: with start circuit delay off, the sound does not workwhen the train is moving slowly.

With decoder installed, set the three DIP switches marked 'S1' to OFF. No mention of the reed switch wires.

 

[dutchelm]

Jon
Looking at one of my tenders which are set for analogue running, the switches are pointing to the front of the tender, ie the red bits are towards the S2 on the PCB.
The reed switch is only needed if you wish to trigger the bell & whistle from track magnets. If you wish to remove it you can but it doesn't make any difference if you leave it.

 

[Zerogee]

Jon,
long time since I played with this board but I believed the DIP switches were used for start voltage to synch loco starting to chuff.

I found the brochure. The switches are part of the start delay circuit. Two switches marked 'S2' -
*Both switches 'Off' delay circuit on, normal delay (factory preset)
*Switch '1' on, switch '2' off, delay circuit on, short delay
*Both switches 'On', delay circuit off, no delay.

Note: with start circuit delay off, the sound does not workwhen the train is moving slowly.

With decoder installed, set the three DIP switches marked 'S1' to OFF. No mention of the reed switch wires.

Thanks for the input, Tim, but I think you've misread my question - it wasn't "should the dip switches be on or off" - I've already got the answer to that from the manual - it was WHICH WAY IS ON (or off)"..... there are no "on" or "off" indications printed on the PCB. I think I know the answer, but I really wanted someone else to confirm it!

To explain the question again: one position of the dip switch puts the red slider all the way to one end of its slot - I think THIS is the ON position; when slid the other way, it does NOT go all the way to the end of the slot - I think this is OFF. Can anyone simply confirm whether I've got this the correct way round?

Dutchelm Mike - thanks, but are you talking about the block of two switches (the starting delay selectors) or the block of three (the analogue/digital switches)....?

Jon.

 

[dutchelm]

Dutchelm Mike - thanks, but are you talking about the block of two switches (the starting delay selectors) or the block of three (the analogue/digital switches)....?
Jon.

Both banks of switches are red end to the front of the tender for analogue running on my tender.

 

[Zerogee]

Thanks Mike, that helps a lot!

Have some pointses on me....

Jon.

 

[ExeterGeek]

OK, another question on the same make of tender...


Like Zerogee I get the chuff sound but not the whistle or bell, and the light seems based on voltage (i.e. it gets brighter as more power is supplied to the loco). Mine however, has the black cable on the top plugged into the board as shown. I've tried it in serial and parallel mode and still no bell and whistle. I have set CV 29 = 2 which didn't made a difference.

Any thoughts ?
My initial thoughts are a bit like what was suggested with Zerogee's whch are to plug it directly into the sound board if I can work out a) which pins would go into which sockets, and b) what I then need to do with the wires coming off the motor block.
Chris