LGB Feldbahn loco runs hot

PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
TRADER
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I have an older Feldbahn cabbed loco here..
It came to me with a burnt-out decoder. Found the motor was 'stiff', and took lots of current on analogue. - Decoder removed as it was ash!

Fitted a new motor, new Emotion-M decoder, and sent it back.

It has come back to me as it runs hot.
If I run it on analogue, at ten volts it draws 0.2Amps. So 2W and it gets warm to the touch. - Run for an hour.
If I run it on DCC, it still runs, but the motor gets too hot to touch for any length of time after about 30 minutes.

Both the above tests done with the new motor, AND new decoder, so DC is going through the decoder to the motor when running on my analogue supply.

The only (obvious) thing to check is motor frequency, the CV for which is CV 9, and this is set to '0', which should be 16KHz and the default (manual suggests best) value.

Does anyone have any ideas on this please?
PhilP.
 
No stiff bearings, gearing or anything else in the drive train ? All lubed up ? Short in the chassis/circuits somewhere causing a resistance. Max.
 
All seems good..
It is ONLY when running DCC there is a problem.
Analogue (still with decoder) is fine..
 
PhilP said:
All seems good..
It is ONLY when running DCC there is a problem.
Analogue (still with decoder) is fine..
Click to expand...
Is the loco running the same way on DCC & DC? Is it any problem with one direction?
 
dutchelm said:
Is the loco running the same way on DCC & DC? Is it any problem with one direction?
Click to expand...
See first post..
ANALOGUE (with decoder fitted), 10V 0.2A, warm after an hour.. 2W this as expected.
DCC 20-30 minutes, motor is too hot to touch for any length of time.. Running similar speed to above test.. Decoder is warmer as well.

I think this points to the decoder being at fault?? It is a little Emotion M decoder, but was brand new.
 
Have you checked out its owner's line and its electronics ? Came to you with stiff motor (lubrication burned off due to heat ?) and fried decoder. You say you have replaced decoder and motor only for it to come back from the owner with the possible beginnings of similar fault. Has something happened at its owners line to trigger this fault and will the same happen again when fixed and returned again ?

As I understand it with DCC the line always runs with full volts and amps and it is the decoder that adjusts this so the motor receives the right volts to run at a selected speed. The amps I assume are relative to to the motor used and any load on that motor. So if you have a hot motor it would appear the full amps are going into the motor. If the voltage were still right up then would not the loco be speeding around uncontrollably ? Sounds that if you eliminate all else it would be the decoder.

I remember from my days, some 45 + years ago, of running 1/24 slot cars at the then popular commercial raceways with motors with "hot" windings and hand controllers needing ultra low ohmage to run them without burning out that after 5 minutes racing required spraying with lighter gas to cool them down. But I don't think your kit is in those realms ;D They could also run at a real speed of 70 mph. Max.
 
I must admit, I am beginning to wonder about the Clients setup.. ?? ???

I have had two (I think) 'fried' decoder loco's fro the same person.. Hummm??


I think I will reset the decoder, and then change the motor frequency from 16KHz to something else, then back again.. I can also try a different motor (though it will not be the same model, it will be a known good motor..

Thanks for the thoughts.
 
I run analog, but

compared to other LGB locos, my FRR stuff runs very warm comparatively.


symptoms are the motor plate is warm to the touch, the motors are indeed hot
and this, mind you, is running them with only 1-3 cars, light 2% grade, for never more than 30 minutes

I don't know how the DCC would work as I presume the motor doesn't get the full 24V, but the decoder would.

I might add, that the FRR diesels have huge weights. Running these light still creates quite a work load for the motor. I have removed these lead blocks so that the locos can slip more easily and that singe axel gear doesn't take such a beating.

I wonder if the client is using non filtered power?
I think it is important to find out specifics so that you are better able to evaluate possible causes.
 
PhilP said:
See first post..
ANALOGUE (with decoder fitted), 10V 0.2A, warm after an hour.. 2W this as expected.
DCC 20-30 minutes, motor is too hot to touch for any length of time.. Running similar speed to above test.. Decoder is warmer as well.

I think this points to the decoder being at fault?? It is a little Emotion M decoder, but was brand new.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your input steve..

I got another decoder sent out, and the same result, very hot motor in 20 minutes. - If you were to hold the motor, you would burn yourself.
 
Is your replacement motor correct? The motor is made by Buhler in 6V,12V,24V. At DC you are running it at 10 volts OK for a 12V motor. On DCC you get the full 22V on the motor in pulse form a 12V motor will get very hot.
 
Railway42 said:
Is your replacement motor correct? The motor is made by Buhler in 6V,12V,24V. At DC you are running it at 10 volts OK for a 12V motor. On DCC you get the full 22V on the motor in pulse form a 12V motor will get very hot.
Click to expand...

Interesting.
For the record do you know of a source of 24V motors, preferably with the appropriate gear fitted to the shaft?
 
never knew the feldbahn motor was only rated 12v, maybe that is yr problem phil
 
The motor was supplied by Peter of Chalk Garden Rail.. I presume it is the correct voltage??

Does anyone know how to interpret the six-digit (from memory) number on the motor??


The 10V at 0.2A is just a 'nice' speed to run it at, with easy numbers on the bench power supply.. Though I take the point about the decoder output being '22V', even if it is chopped at 16KHz.

Sparky.. A 'send three and four-pence' moment??
Railway42 (sorry, don't know name even from profile), suggests my '10V' test voltage would be fine for a 12V motor, not the motor SHOULD be 12V..
 
no Phil, the spec sheet says it's 12v

CL22209 exchange engine for the light railway locomotives
engine for LGBchen (Item No. 20140, 21140, 22140, 23140), the US steam locomotives Grizzly Flats and Waimanalo Olomana (LGB No. 20130, 22130) and the Feldbahndieselloks (LGB ® Item No. 20910, 21910, 22910, 23910, 29145). Specifications: 12 Volt nominal voltage At idle max. Speed ​​9.800 U / min at 0.20 A underload at 7,900 rev / min, torque 0,60 Ncm at 0.80 A The rated voltage is specified by the manufacturer, with which the engine is running properly. The engine can be operated with up to 24 volts!
 
sparky230 said:
no Phil, the spec sheet says it's 12v

CL22209 exchange engine for the light railway locomotives
engine for LGBchen (Item No. 20140, 21140, 22140, 23140), the US steam locomotives Grizzly Flats and Waimanalo Olomana (LGB No. 20130, 22130) and the Feldbahndieselloks (LGB ® Item No. 20910, 21910, 22910, 23910, 29145). Specifications: 12 Volt nominal voltage At idle max. Speed ​​9.800 U / min at 0.20 A underload at 7,900 rev / min, torque 0,60 Ncm at 0.80 A The rated voltage is specified by the manufacturer, with which the engine is running properly. The engine can be operated with up to 24 volts!
Click to expand...
Ah!
So the problem is my fault, as there does not seem to be a decoder profile available for this model..
Hence I have a decoder chucking out 22V chopped at 16KHz into a motor rated at 12V :o ::)

As these types of loco would not have been capable of any great speed, I need to limit the upper voltage to the motor.. It is (very!) late now, but a visit to the CV's and speed-table is in order..
As is a hunt for a decoder profile for this loco.

PhilP.
 
PhilP said:
Ah!
So the problem is my fault, as there does not seem to be a decoder profile available for this model..
Hence I have a decoder chucking out 22V chopped at 16KHz into a motor rated at 12V :o ::)

As these types of loco would not have been capable of any great speed, I need to limit the upper voltage to the motor.. It is (very!) late now, but a visit to the CV's and speed-table is in order..
As is a hunt for a decoder profile for this loco.

PhilP.
Click to expand...

I suspect that it may not be that straightforward.
If you look at Champex-Linden's site their description of all LGB motors, except the Rugen's CL22210 and a 6V pantograph motor, state 12V nominal but suitable for up to 24.

http://www.champex-linden.de/cl_pr_lgb_ersatzteile.htm

It would seem that there is some compatibility problem between the Feldbahn motor and the decoder you are using but I doubt that it is simply down to a matter of the motor's nominal voltage.
 
Both my Dingler brass Ts3 locos have Buhler motors with labels on the motor case stating "12v", but they seem to run fine on 22-24v DCC (Massoth) via an LS decoder.

Re the Feldbahn locos, LGB have always said that they should only be run with light loads - I always assumed that was to avoid straining the belt drive setup, but maybe they also knew the motors tended to run hot...?

Jon.
 
Try the DC Motor section here?

http://www.buehlermotor.com/EN/Products
 
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