LGB 22430 Ratische Bahn "Klosters" electric loco

  • Thread starter Roger the Dodger
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Roger the Dodger

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Hello all
I'm after some help if possible. I've just fitted a DCC Concepts V12 Black decoder to this older style loco. All fine, loco runs well and all lights work directionally. I removed the old pc boards. Now the thing is this loco has two pantographs which, originally, worked up/down when the direction of travel was changed. At the moment these are disconnected but, if possible I would like to be able to raise/ lower them, individually, using two spare functions on the decoder.
So please does anyone on here have any idea of the wiring requirements t,o enable me to do this?
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
24,056
693
Tamworth, Staffs.
You will need a clean 5-6v supply, and a pair of DPDT relays..
You wire the relays, to switch your nice-clean 5-6v to the pantograph connectors.
 
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Roger the Dodger

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Thank you PhilP. However I'm a bit of a novice when it comes to electronics. What is a "clean" supply? Does this mean I can't use a function on the decoder to power them, as this is likely to be more than 5V? Also there are at least 4 W wires attached to each pantograph mechanism, is anyone aware of what they all do.
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
24,056
693
Tamworth, Staffs.
Thank you PhilP. However I'm a bit of a novice when it comes to electronics. What is a "clean" supply? Does this mean I can't use a function on the decoder to power them, as this is likely to be more than 5V? Also there are at least 4 W wires attached to each pantograph mechanism, is anyone aware of what they all do.
A 'clean' supply, means a smooth DC voltage. - Not a 'chopped-up' higher one, as you would get from a function output set to a lower voltage.

Use a small 'buck' regulator to give 5-6V DC out. Feed this into the common terminals of a DPDT relay. The NC (Normally Closed) pair of contacts will go to two of the connections, and the NO (Normally Open) contacts will go to two others.
You can work out which, with a battery (even a PP3 9V will work) to test..
Two pins will make connections into the connectors going to the roof of the loco.

I lost my drawings on, a supposedly backed-up, hard-drive, and do not have a loco with pantographs here at the moment.

You use a function output to switch the relay. - Use the Normally Closed contacts for forwards, so for most of the time the relay will not be energised. Function goes 'on' (so switches relay) to change over.

Note: one relay per pantograph. Two function buttons if you want to control each pantograph independently.

PhilP.
 
Zerogee

Zerogee

Clencher's Bogleman
25 Oct 2009
16,810
201
North Essex
A 'clean' supply, means a smooth DC voltage. - Not a 'chopped-up' higher one, as you would get from a function output set to a lower voltage.

Use a small 'buck' regulator to give 5-6V DC out. Feed this into the common terminals of a DPDT relay. The NC (Normally Closed) pair of contacts will go to two of the connections, and the NO (Normally Open) contacts will go to two others.
You can work out which, with a battery (even a PP3 9V will work) to test..
Two pins will make connections into the connectors going to the roof of the loco.

I lost my drawings on, a supposedly backed-up, hard-drive, and do not have a loco with pantographs here at the moment.

You use a function output to switch the relay. - Use the Normally Closed contacts for forwards, so for most of the time the relay will not be energised. Function goes 'on' (so switches relay) to change over.

Note: one relay per pantograph. Two function buttons if you want to control each pantograph independently.

PhilP.
I don't know if this is relevant here, but I'll mention it anyway on the basis that all advice here is worth exactly what you pay for it.... when I was wanting to connect a 5-volt voltage regulator to a function output of a decoder (in this case, to the lighting outputs of an XLS) for my track/battery/wireless-DCC loco project, another forumite "wot knows about this electrickery stuff" strongly suggested that I put a pair of Schottky diodes into the wires between the decoder outputs and the voltage regulator, to protect the decoder against any unwanted current "backflow" from the regulator..... I did as recommended, and have not had any problems - of course I can't say whether or not I would have had a problem at all had the diodes NOT been there, but for the few pennies that a couple of of Schottkys will cost you, it might be worth doing anyway?

If others Wot Know Stuff agree that this is a good idea, I can dig up the original thread and link to it....?

Jon.
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
24,056
693
Tamworth, Staffs.
Wot Jon say's..
But we are a long way from a 'final draft' yet.. ;)

You do not need a regulator on a function output.. Just a bridge rectifier on a feed of track-power, then the regulator. - This 'clean' DC is fed to the pantograph boards, by the relays.
The relays are switched by the function outputs. - These can either be 'automatic' (controlled by direction of loco) or fully manual (controlled by the operator).

I *might* still have a scruffy bit of paper somewhere... It is the 'somewhere' that is the problem! :(
 
P

Paul M

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. It is the 'somewhere' that is the problem! :(
No there's somewhere, everywhere, the problem is finding the right somewhere!
 
Zerogee

Zerogee

Clencher's Bogleman
25 Oct 2009
16,810
201
North Essex
Wot Jon say's..
But we are a long way from a 'final draft' yet.. ;)

You do not need a regulator on a function output.. Just a bridge rectifier on a feed of track-power, then the regulator. - This 'clean' DC is fed to the pantograph boards, by the relays.
The relays are switched by the function outputs. - These can either be 'automatic' (controlled by direction of loco) or fully manual (controlled by the operator).

I *might* still have a scruffy bit of paper somewhere... It is the 'somewhere' that is the problem! :(
Sorry Phil, yes, of course - I was thinking about the regulator being in the wrong place, forgetting that you're not driving the panto motors directly from the fuction output!

Jon.
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
24,056
693
Tamworth, Staffs.
Sorry Phil, yes, of course -
Not a problem, Jon..
A 'thought exercise' is easy for the person thinking it.. ;)

I have been busy with sorting other things... I WILL have a little look, but life is getting very much in the way, just at the moment.. :(
 
R

Roger the Dodger

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PhilP, thank you so much for your help. I think I'm beginning to get it BUT a diagram or some such would really be a great help. I'm not even sure what a relay looks like or what size etc. I will await further developments. Thank you all again.
 
Zerogee

Zerogee

Clencher's Bogleman
25 Oct 2009
16,810
201
North Essex
PhilP, thank you so much for your help. I think I'm beginning to get it BUT a diagram or some such would really be a great help. I'm not even sure what a relay looks like or what size etc. I will await further developments. Thank you all again.
Question to Phil and others - while I've not used one myself so am not sure, would one of these solve Roger's problem in a single easy-to-wire-up package?


Jon.
 
R

Roger the Dodger

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This looks promising Jon. I do hope it fits the bill.
 
Zerogee

Zerogee

Clencher's Bogleman
25 Oct 2009
16,810
201
North Essex
This looks promising Jon. I do hope it fits the bill.
I believe it contains two separate relays, each able to handle 8 amps, with simple screw terminals for connections - no soldering or other connection hassles - and is designed to be driven directly from a decoder output. What I don't know is how you would wire it up to the LGB panto motor(s), because I've never done that. Hopefully others here can advise further.

Jon.
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
24,056
693
Tamworth, Staffs.
No, it is one relay.. You need two of them, and a regulator board.
 
Zerogee

Zerogee

Clencher's Bogleman
25 Oct 2009
16,810
201
North Essex
No, it is one relay.. You need two of them, and a regulator board.
Ah, right, so one of these per panto mechanism - found this bit of description online:

"The Massoth relay board is a general purpose switching amplifier with two 8-Amp outputs. Each output may be used as a separate switching amplifier. Both output may be used together to reverse polarity.
The relay board may be used to operate a smoke generator or a motor that draws more current that the controlling decoder can handle. It may also be used to provide direction-sensitive control of pantographs in DCC operations."

So both outputs are required to function as a DPDT changeover relay.
All of this could no doubt be done cheaper by just buying the individual relays and other parts, but in this particular case the ease of use may (or may not, of course) outweigh the cost factors...?

Jon.
 
P

Paul M

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Question to Phil and others - while I've not used one myself so am not sure, would one of these solve Roger's problem in a single easy-to-wire-up package?


Jon.
Emotion? Stiff upper lips only round here!
 
P

phils2um

Phil S
11 Sep 2015
382
171
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Roger - Do you still have the original light control PC board? If so, there is a not quite so elegant solution for the LGB 2X43 series of locos that is supplied with the Massoth relay board instructions. Check out the 8242040 instruction manual at the Massoth website. The relay is energized by the rear light output of the decoder. The relay outputs are used to reverse the voltage going to the brown and white wires of original light control board. The green wire is not used and must be isolated. The light control board supplies the correct regulated voltage to the pantographs and lights. This is how I've got my 2143 "Thusis" set up. This decoder/relay configuration does not give individual control of the pantographs. Instead, in the forward direction the correct rear pantograph is always up. It will remain up and the other pantograph will stay down if the lights are off and the direction is reversed. When the loco's lights are on, the pantographs will operate as expected with a change of direction. To operate with both pantographs down they must be physically clicked into their stowed down position.

As I said it's not elegant but it does work! I've had no problems with my 2143. The decoder I installed is a Massoth XLS sound decoder but the configuration should work with any suitable decoder.

Edit added - I'll check later today to make sure I've correctly described how the pantographs operate with the loco lights off. I do know they work right when the lights are on!
 
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R

Roger the Dodger

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No, it is one relay.. You need two of them, and a regulator board.
Hi Phil. this looks to be the route to go. I will order 2 of these. please though can you suggest a suitable regulator board and an idea of where I can get one.
 
R

Roger the Dodger

Registered
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Bournemouth UK
Roger - Do you still have the original light control PC board? If so, there is a not quite so elegant solution for the LGB 2X43 series of locos that is supplied with the Massoth relay board instructions. Check out the 8242040 instruction manual at the Massoth website. The relay is energized by the rear light output of the decoder. The relay outputs are used to reverse the voltage going to the brown and white wires of original light control board. The green wire is not used and must be isolated. The light control board supplies the correct regulated voltage to the pantographs and lights. This is how I've got my 2143 "Thusis" set up. This decoder/relay configuration does not give individual control of the pantographs. Instead, in the forward direction the correct rear pantograph is always up. It will remain up and the other pantograph will stay down if the lights are off and the direction is reversed. When the loco's lights are on, the pantographs will operate as expected with a change of direction. To operate with both pantographs down they must be physically clicked into their stowed down position.

As I said it's not elegant but it does work! I've had no problems with my 2143. The decoder I installed is a Massoth XLS sound decoder but the configuration should work with any suitable decoder.

Edit added - I'll check later today to make sure I've correctly described how the pantographs operate with the loco lights off. I do know they work right when the lights are on!

Damn no! I scrapped the board when I put in the decoder and rewired all the lighting. Im hoping the regulator board ,suggested by PhilP will do the same job. Thank you all the same.
 
R

Roger the Dodger

Registered
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Bournemouth UK
Ah, right, so one of these per panto mechanism - found this bit of description online:

"The Massoth relay board is a general purpose switching amplifier with two 8-Amp outputs. Each output may be used as a separate switching amplifier. Both output may be used together to reverse polarity.
The relay board may be used to operate a smoke generator or a motor that draws more current that the controlling decoder can handle. It may also be used to provide direction-sensitive control of pantographs in DCC operations."

So both outputs are required to function as a DPDT changeover relay.
All of this could no doubt be done cheaper by just buying the individual relays and other parts, but in this particular case the ease of use may (or may not, of course) outweigh the cost factors...?

Jon.
Thank you very much for this, it looks to me to solve the issue and I'll order a couple of them.