Is there an easy to follow ie biginners guide to CVs and programming

[beavercreek]

As a new sort of user of DCC, I was wondering if there is an easy tyo follow guide to programming CVs that also covers things like switch decoders etc. It should, if possible, also cover the different ways, if any, that Massoth and LGB implement the protocol using their devices
I am almost okay with the concept but when it comes to actually knowing what is going on and how to do it, I begin to fall apart.

Whilst I can folow, just about, the clearer instructions like the ones that 'Muns' posts as help to others, I do not actually understand what is happening so have to follow parrot-like. If I was posed with a problem, I doubt that I could work it out due to the lack of undderstanding and only being able to follow the set of instructions.

It is like the old adage:
You are told....you forget
you see...you can repeat
You do...you remember
you study.....you understand

I think that I maybe half way between the second and third......... It is the combination of the process of inputting and knowing what you you are inputting that I really need to get straight

A lot of guys on here are 'unconsciously competent' having gone through all the processes of learning and that is the top place to be. But when it comes to explaining how to do what you know in terms that lesser mortals, as a dullard like me, understandneed, you need to take one step back which is 'consciously competant' ..... from my old lectures when I was training to be a teacher......

So that is why I need a primer in CV stuff

 

[ntpntpntp]

Hmm... if it's switch decoders you're particulary interested in, then that's when it get's more difficult to give you a generalised and easy to follow guide. The different brands and models of switch decoder can have totally different ways to program and may use different CV values to set up the device's features. The way you send the CV values to the decoder will also depend on the DCC system you're using.

For example the NCE SwitchKats I use are programmed totally differently to (say) a Massoth 4-channel switch decoder. The only commonalilty would be the end result of having an address (or block of addresses) which matches what you enter on your system to actually change the point.

I reckon your best bet is for someone familiar with those specific devices to guide you and answer any detailed questions.

 

[beavercreek]

Hi Nick
Thanks for the info.
I just mentioned switch decoders but really I need a general primer that can take me from the knowledge point that I am now (low) through the CV learning curve and leave me where I am competant and understanding.
When I was an ICT consultant in education, I had to deliver many inservice sessions to teachers etc on IT. During those sessions I had to take and give lead at the level that the audience were at to make my input valid. If I gave them stuff that was at my level then i would have been very ineffective and had a very short freelance career.
I am at a low level of competance in DCC but have a few pockets of knowledge. What I need is it explained in terms where I am now so that i can build on that knowledge and progress. There must be a primer (book, pamphlet or on-line site) out there somewhere that explains things as if the teller knows that the learner does not know a hell of a lot.....hopefully.....

 

[beavercreek]

I have found one primer that deals with DCC on-line. It is general and does not deal with LGB or Massoth specifically but seems so far to be pretty explanatory
But it does not deal in depth with 'what are CVs' and how they are programmed as such.
http://www.tonystrains.com/tonystips/dccprimer/index.htm < Link To http://www.tonystrains.co...ps/dccprimer/index.htm

 

[Gizzy]

Trouble is Mike, every manufacturer will have different CVs for different functionality.

So it's only really possible by reading the manual supplied with each decoder. No so bad if you standardise on say the Massoth XLS, but if you have other brands of decoder, then it gets a little more complex!

As you have the Sprog, I guess you need to be familiar with the software for that machine. That is your first consideration.

Then you need to read and understand the manual for the product that you are trying to program.

Once you've set up your CVs though, you rarely need to tinker. Might be a good idea to save your CV settings for each of your locos, on your PC though, just in case of any later problems....

 

[mike]

buy a sprog..it uses a simple interface, it makes programming cv easy.. it must be, i can use it

 

[beavercreek]

Thanks Gizzy
Yes I was thinking that myself. Well I do understand the concept so perhaps I will just have to follw product manual instructions and maybe also watch and do alongside one of you master exponents. I can always pop over to Steve to investigate the Massoth, pop over to Jon to investgate the Sprog deeper and maybe someone else for LGB MTS input.
I have an MTSIII system on the workbench at the moment as I try to find out why a perfectly fine DCC loco is having probs on DC.
I think it is the LGB manuals that are really difficult to follow. They seem to give thin info on what is going on and how to use the kit!
I never have liked feeling dumbfounded by something and what to do with the LGB stuff to try to diagnose this loco is trying to beat me!
I will persevere.....It will not beat me.................
I wanted to learn the three systems (LGB, Massoth and Sprog) for future use
I will also get the Massoth stuff into operation as that will be where I will go when fully into DCC gear. There might be a MTS III and a MTS II set going soon!

 

[beavercreek]

buy a sprog..it uses a simple interface, it makes programming cv easy.. it must be, i can use it

Hi Mike
I have a Sprog and yes it does make sense to use it as it does have the graphic interface etc.
I was just wanting to beat the LGB system and learn its little eccentricities!
Perhaps I will just give in.................:impatient:

 

[ntpntpntp]

<edit> ah, I see others have chipped in (no pun intended!) while I was bashing the following in! </edit>

Well, I suppose in the most general terms a CV is simply a numbered "box" in the memory of the decoder, into which a numeric value can be placed. The software program in the decoder refers to the values in the boxes and modifies its behaviour according to what it finds.

A limited set of the CV numbers are effectively standardised by the NMRA and all compliant decoders should treat them as meaning the same thing, (think what a disaster it would be if the "address" CV wasn't standardised!) but most are a free-for-all and may have different meanings (or not be used at all) in different decoders.

To program a CV, the DCC command station must send an instruction like "write value 123 into CV number 45" (or whatever) to the decoder. Exactly what buttons you press to program a CV depends on what equipment you use, but the end result has to be that "write value to CV" instruction being sent down the wire and track to the decoder. The meaning of the value you write also depends on how the decoder has been programmed.

There are complexities involved in this process due to the way things have changed over the years and due to the way some manufacturers like to add their own "bells and whistles", but the good thing is that something like the JMRI DecoderPro software in conjunction with a SPROG (or any other suitable device) will hide almost all of that complexity from you.


Does that help at all or are you already beyond that point in your acquisition of DCC knowledge?

There is a site http://www.dccwiki.com < Link To www.dccwiki.com which I seem to remember was quite helpful, but can't look at it here at work to check exactly what it contains.

 

[Cliff George]

This is a general text about DCC which contains some good stuff, probably not many specifics.

http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/nswmn2/DCC.htm#BackEMFTCDither

As others has said a CV is a CV is a CV, whatever systems you have, whoever the manufacturer is. What CVs exist from manufacturere to manufacturer can vary to some extent (although NMRA have a common set), and the way you read/write CVs can also vary from system to system. It is usually quite easy to pick up.

I often find it easier to read the decoder manuals and set/read the CVs one at a time rather than use programs such as decooderpro and others which can make the process somewhat opaque, in my view. At least that way you get a very good grounding in what is actually going on.

If I can help in any way do let me know. I've used quite a few different types of decoder, but have no experience of LGB or Massoth command stations!

There are some commercial DCC courses out there. DCC Supplies do some and I believe at one time GRS did some.

 

[steve parberry]

More help and tips may be found here.


http://forum.massoth.org/

Also on the main site

http://www.massoth.com/index.en.html

 

[Cliff George]

Yes the DCCWiki was quite good, but I think it has problems at the moment with their web site (I also can't look at it while I'm at work!).

Must do some real work now. Actually its lunch time and I've got to pop out a pay in a cheque from ....

 

[beavercreek]

Thanks in plenty to you Nick, Steve and Cliff.

I am sort of okay with the background of the fact that CVs are like pigeon holes and values are put into them. But thanks for reinforcing that part of my awareness
I think my situation is having to:
1) learn the inputting methods by LGB, Massoth and Sprog....instruction manuals have to be perused at length (LGB one is a real badly designed one from a user friendly perspective). Is there a more useful LGB MTS primer available?

2) Getting my head around some of the more essoteric CVs and what can be achieved when programming decoders by different manufacturers.

I will practice and get familiar with the obvious scenarios that I have at hand and then go and watch/do with other members to learn more.

This forum again proves that , although we have fun and lark about at times, there is a goldmine of experience to delve into and advice is always generously given