Help problems with my Trainline Mallett an early Black one ref 2011002 not Zino Chip but DCC Sound

dunnyrail

dunnyrail

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25 Oct 2009
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Long shot I know but I have just started on this Loco to convert it to Battery DCC. As it has 2 Bogies each with their own link to the Chip I decided to see if Power via one Bogie would run the beast. Effectively pulling out the Track Power Plugs on the Front Bogie and Powering it from DCC on Rollers via Crock Clips. All the Track Pickup Plungers Anne Skates have been removed.

Now I get the full range of Sounds, Whistle Announcements and Hiss. Wheels go round as expected. BUT NO CHUFF. Now the Sensor is located on the Front Bogie so I have looked at that and what looks like the 3 pronged ‘thingy’ was a little bit away from the Wheel Magnets so it was relocated but still no Chuffin Chuff.

Any ideas anyone?

Once this is resolved one way or another I will be posting the work done to convert this beast to Battery Power using Fosworks DCC Kit which has been ordered today.
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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You could try checking the hall effect sensor to see if it is working... 3 leads, +5v, ground and "signal"... should be able to verify those with a meter.

So, the chip is "Not Zimo".... any ideas what?

Greg
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
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St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
You could try checking the hall effect sensor to see if it is working... 3 leads, +5v, ground and "signal"... should be able to verify those with a meter.

So, the chip is "Not Zimo".... any ideas what?

Greg
Thanks Greg, I have dug out the Manual and it looks to have been a Special Massoth Chip. The good news is I should be able to read the CV’s on it as I have a Massoth Setup. The bad news is that there is no declaration of what kind of Massoth Chip hence my view it may have been a Special. It certainly does not look like a conventional Chip. The actual Chip itself is in the middle mounted on a Trainline Board. The Chip does come out but would be useless except on this Board. There is also a sub Chip of some sort to the bottom hidden beneath the wiring to the Cab Switch. This has a Capicitor or two and may be relavent to all of this.
123359_9d7838585a548c313f1b6fe3efc9b66c.jpeg
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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You should be able to read the manufacturer ID and probably the decoder version number, that would be a start.

I would think you could probe those 3 wires with the loco running on rollers, that's where I would start.

The manufacturer ID and version should be standard CV's 7 and 8..

Greg
 
PhilP

PhilP

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So a Trainline model, not LGB..

What makes you think the decoder / sound is Massoth?
 
Zerogee

Zerogee

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The early Trainline45 Mallets were certainly available with a choice of either Massoth or Zimo decoders, the latter being slightly more expensive (but worth the extra IMO, much better sound). My black 5901 has Massoth, my green 5902 Zimo (my Fiffi & Pfiffi "twins" are both Zimo).

Jon.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

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25 Oct 2009
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So a Trainline model, not LGB..

What makes you think the decoder / sound is Massoth?
Cos in my Folder with the Instructions is a sheet with Massoth on it. The early first issued Black Mallett had a different Chip to the later ones that had Zimo. Quite possibly there may have been issues with the Massoth setup and TL went down the Zimo Route. Certainly the Zimo Chips Sound much better. Sod’s law that I should choose to Battery up the one with the Massoth Chip first. But this one has not been back aged like my Zimo Green one, hence deciding to pull this Black one to bits first.

As Jon says the Zimo have much better sound but I am not sure that the option of a choice of Chip was available when they first appeared and I was desparate to get a Harz Mallett for my lone.

You should be able to read the manufacturer ID and probably the decoder version number, that would be a start.

I would think you could probe those 3 wires with the loco running on rollers, that's where I would start.

The manufacturer ID and version should be standard CV's 7 and 8..

Greg
Will read the version of the Chip today.

Greg the Grey Plug to the left is where the Sensors come to the Chip. There are 5 wires Yellow, Red Green then Black and another Red. Any idea what I should be getting when I probe them? I guess continuity when the Magnet should be in line with the Sesnor.
 
muns

muns

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That looks like a Massoth XLII PluG driving decoder and does not have any sound capability. Sounds would be handled by a sound module over the SUSI interface.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

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25 Oct 2009
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St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
That looks like a Massoth XLII PluG driving decoder and does not have any sound capability. Sounds would be handled by a sound module over the SUSI interface.
Ah as may be but Sounds are all present but no Chuff which is so far as I can see activated by the 5 wires Grey plug that goes to the sensor by the wheels to be activated by the Magnets on the Wheel? Is that what you were saying?

So looking at an XLS Manual the sensors are activated by CV 229-234. But the TO Massoth Chip does not have these CV’s, well they are readable but are all Value 0. However the TO Massoth Manual (all in German!) has CV 220-227 for ServomFunctions and the Values are all correct as per the Manual. Hmm can see a new Chip being installed in this baby yet.

Greg Versions:-
Cv 7 Reads 32 ‘- - - ‘shown in Manual.
Cv8 Reads 123 as expected from the Manual.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

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If CV255=133, then eMOTION XL II PluG Decoder, Massoth part number 8150101



View attachment 252113

View attachment 252112
Thanks with that knowledge I Can now to dig out an English Manual, yes 255 = 133 as you say. My Chip a little different with only 1 round part compared to two in Massoth Site but I guess things change over the years.

Showing the 2 Chips removed
123394_f0be2388e9a4cf8182e4e9b90e4abc75.jpeg

And in situ ( still no Chuff!)
123395_947187d42a018b22c7a6a07acf7e59a3.jpeg
 
muns

muns

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So there you have it an eMotion XLII PluG and an eMotion S PluG module
You should be able to read the S module over the SUSI interface via the XLII - CVs 900+
Use the Massoth S via SUSI > 3.5

XLIIPlug Manual: http://wiki.massoth.de/tiki-download_file.php?fileId=88
Cant seem to find an online version of the S PluG module atm.
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
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Tamworth, Staffs.
Was there not something about one of the manufacturers issuing loco's with functions turned off under analogue running?
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

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25 Oct 2009
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Was there not something about one of the manufacturers issuing loco's with functions turned off under analogue running?
No knowledge Phil, but it has always been run in DCC and will be when I get the Battery gear.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
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St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
So there you have it an eMotion XLII PluG and an eMotion S PluG module
You should be able to read the S module over the SUSI interface via the XLII - CVs 900+
Use the Massoth S via SUSI > 3.5

XLIIPlug Manual: http://wiki.massoth.de/tiki-download_file.php?fileId=88
Cant seem to find an online version of the S PluG module atm.
Hi Mark,
Many thanks for that Info. Have the Plug In Decoder in UK and German Language on my iPad. Interestingly the 900+ CV’s show in the TrainLine Manual but not the one that you linked even though to a quick scan most things appear to be the same. One item on the OnLine Manual that is relevant is 5.7 CV 49 which appears to be the Bus for Susi. The TL Manual shows this should be a Bit Value of 18 and this checked and the result as expected. I have also checked out the 900xx CV’s as shown on the next Pic and they apart from a few minor differences result up OK.
123465_a4e378235cd15baa7ce476620a6d6461.jpeg

I have played about again with the sensor ensuring it to be as close as possible to the Magnets. I have also tried a few tests on the Board with a 5v Battery Connected to the Red and Black connections to see if there was any change to the Reeds on the Chip when the Magnet was in close contact to the Sensor. No results but I may be doing the wrong thing here.
123464_d7372c0f98b4a934cd9b830fd4a911fc.jpeg
123465_a4e378235cd15baa7ce476620a6d6461.jpeg

Finally a Vid of the beast running on Blocks, what you see is DCC Power Direct to the Chip from 1 Bogie Only. Though as expected the current is getting through to the other Bogie just fine so my plan to feed Batter DCC Chip where the Test Leads are feeding will be fine as I would have expected.


Certainly all the Sounds and Functions appear to be fine except for that drafted loss of Chuff. On the next one I will certainly More careful on opening the Bogie with the sensor. But I have to to get inside to remove Plungers and Pickups for a Battery Conversion and I am pretty sure that the Sensor must have been dislodged from it’s default location is what has caused this issue.
 
muns

muns

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You should be able to test to see if it is the hall effect unit or the decoder. With dcc power to the loco, on the board with the reeds/hall sensor, use a small length of wire to short GND to the terminals A, P G in turn. It looks like A is the chuff sensor feedback - if not the whistle or bell will sound. Simulate the pulsing by repeatedly removing/applying the short - if its the sound module then it should "chuff".

If it does chuff, follow the track on the board to the through the board whole and try again. if it still works try shoring against the leg of the hall sensor.

Are you going to the GSS show on Sunday?
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
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203
71
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
You should be able to test to see if it is the hall effect unit or the decoder. With dcc power to the loco, on the board with the reeds/hall sensor, use a small length of wire to short GND to the terminals A, P G in turn. It looks like A is the chuff sensor feedback - if not the whistle or bell will sound. Simulate the pulsing by repeatedly removing/applying the short - if its the sound module then it should "chuff".

If it does chuff, follow the track on the board to the through the board whole and try again. if it still works try shoring against the leg of the hall sensor.

Are you going to the GSS show on Sunday?
Thanks Mark. Will give that a try today. Not planned to go to Nottingham as it will be pretty well impossible to do by Public Transport.
 
John S

John S

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The two Reed's are the triggers for the Bell & Whistle, waving a magnet across them will confirm if they are working.

To test the Hall Sensor,
123499_a979b943af4dac40732b283acfd49ce6.png
 
Last edited:
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
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Tamworth, Staffs.
Jon,
Give us a photo of the board 'in-situ' in the block..

We can see how the hall-effect device is sitting in relation to the magnet then.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
14,454
203
71
St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
The two Reed's are the triggers for the Bell & Whistle, waving a magnet across them will confirm if they are working.

To test the Hall Sensor,
View attachment 252168
John ok many thanks for that.
Testing the Reeds. They register on 2ohm with the Meter a constantly changing number, but once the Magnet is put to them they both Read 0 so I guess proves that they are both OK.

Set up to test the Hall Sensor as you suggested, no Voltage noted so I guess this must be the Problem. I wonder if an actual Touch of the Magnet could have trashed it?
Jon,
Give us a photo of the board 'in-situ' in the block..

We can see how the hall-effect device is sitting in relation to the magnet then.
Screwdriver is holding the board in situ as it tends to lift when the Wheel Holding Plate has been removed.
123565_e0d9fd01ca536240f44823ad408e54e4.jpeg

Oh the other thing I tried just in case was to wire up both Pickups and ran the beast on Blocks. This made no difference, it was a long shot.