Help - blue battery dimensions

DoctorM said:
Sounds like there will be a lot of demand for an almost nil-cost piece of useless "equipment" (whatever that means) for sending along with lithium batteries to legally get round this restriction. Any ideas?
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How about a really low cost torch? One LED, one resistor, one switch, a case + lithium battery = 1 torch.
Free LED and switch with every battery. :)

Rik
 
ge_rik said:
Hi Trev
I've been doing a fair bit of background reading since I started this thread and come across all manner of dubious practices discussed on other forums - including the suggestion to use a paint stripping heat gun on heatshrink wrapping around a bundle of soft cells - which I don't think I'll try.

Given that these batteries are now found in most portable devices (including this tablet) I had was under the impression that hobby lithium batteries could be treated in much the same way as their less volatile predecessors (NiMh, NCd) but I'm beginning to appreciate they need to be handled differently. For example, as indicated above, I've been following the accepted practice among railway modellers of installing batteries permanently and charging them through a switch and socket. I now realise this is not really applicable for lithium batteries as there is greater risk of catastrophic battery failure. Hence, better to have the batteries readily removable.

Presumably there are other railway modellers who are using lithium battery power, but there's precious little information out there at present. By contrast, the net is knee-deep in info about the technology on car, boat and plane forums. It's a question of trying to sort the wheat from the chaff or the useful from the, shall we say, inadvisable.

In the meantime, looks like there is only a handful of us on this forum treading this path and inevitably, we will have to learn from others' tangential experiences and from our own trials and errors. Let's just hope our errors are not too irrecoverable.

Looks like I'm going to have to experiment with cylindrical cells for my next loco as there's not enough room for soft cells. As I'm not a cavalier (does that make me a roundhead?), I'll go for new 18650 cells such as these ( http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-X-ULTRAFIRE-LITHIUM-RECHARGEABLE-BATTERY-3-7V-18650-4000mah-LI-ON-UK-/111388752342?pt=UK_ConsumerElectronics_Batteries_SM&hash=item19ef4979d6 ) rather than trying to recycle old ones out of a laptop or drill battery pack. I'm presently trying to find some higher capacity cells with solder tags - the only ones I can find with tags are 1.6Ah.

Rik.
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Rik

I view a Radio Control forum mainly aircraft and car/buggy stuff.

From what I have gathered they fast charge their Lipos usually from a lead acid battery (car) or some other power source and they use ridiculously high (to me anyway) charging currents to achieve this.

I have just bought my first Lipo battery and it is installed in a semi permanent configuration ie charge via a switched socket but contained in a tender that can be placed in zone where the damage caused by a fire is reduced or even contained.

I intend to use a charging current of approx. 1/10th or lower of the capacity with a balancing charger.

Having read all the info I could absorb and talking to other people (primarily a mechatronics engineer in the robotics world) I cannot see any trouble with this method.

From what I have gathered its when you try to jam a large amount of energy into a Lipo in a short time that the risks increase dramatically.

If it all goes pear shaped I will let people know real quick.
 
DoctorM said:
Sounds like there will be a lot of demand for an almost nil-cost piece of useless "equipment" (whatever that means) for sending along with lithium batteries to legally get round this restriction. Any ideas?
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Ross
Is this a knee jerk reaction to the fire issues associated with the Dreamliner?
 
GAP said:
Rik

I view a Radio Control forum mainly aircraft and car/buggy stuff.

From what I have gathered they fast charge their Lipos usually from a lead acid battery (car) or some other power source and they use ridiculously high (to me anyway) charging currents to achieve this.

I have just bought my first Lipo battery and it is installed in a semi permanent configuration ie charge via a switched socket but contained in a tender that can be placed in zone where the damage caused by a fire is reduced or even contained.

I intend to use a charging current of approx. 1/10th or lower of the capacity with a balancing charger.

Having read all the info I could absorb and talking to other people (primarily a mechatronics engineer in the robotics world) I cannot see any trouble with this method.

From what I have gathered its when you try to jam a large amount of energy into a Lipo in a short time that the risks increase dramatically.

If it all goes pear shaped I will let people know real quick.
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I think it's understandable that the CAA and IATA have concerns over lithium batteries. I'd like to know that necessary precautions have been taken when I board a passenger aircraft, eg see: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25733346

From what I've read, the greatest risk does seem to be when fast-charging lithium batteries which is when some car and aero modellers tend to get impatient and careless. So saying, these batteries are potentially dangerous, even when treated with the greatest respect - as someone said on one of the forums I accessed, you have to remember you have installed an explosive device in your model and treat it as such. But then, live steam modellers have coped with something similar for many years and every time we fill our cars with petrol ....... etc etc.

I found some really useful info and an outline of safety precautions here:
http://www.bmfa.org/DesktopModules/Bring2mind/DMX/Download.aspx?PortalId=0&EntryId=293

Rik
 
ge_rik said:
Unfortunately my optimism was misplaced

"Sorry, We are not accept ship to UK"

So, the highest Ah rating for tagged 18650s I can find in UK is 2.3Ah, though I have found 5Ah in untagged and I've ordered those.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201056896378

and some battery holders - which are not ideal but will hopefully do the job
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171324968193

Rik
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So if I were to buy them for you could I send them to the UK? Quite happy to do that if it is possible to do it... Maybe its good to live in the antipodes.... There are restrictions on sending batteries Par Avion but it seems that that is for bulk lots only. Mind you I think 5 amps as claimed is very very optimistic....
I also view the fact that if they are in something eg a battery holder then they can fly. Maybe some bureaucratic indulgence there? Detonators and explosives can be carried by air but they have to be properly packaged are they suggesting that these batteries are more unstable than C4???
 
Regarding the problems in aircraft..
Could this be due to cargo holds not being pressurised? - Perhaps some of the cases are 'popping' causing movement and sort-circuits.
Also, knowing these are mainly being sent from China et al, could the packaging be pretty suspect as well? - if each 'unit' was individually wrapped, there would be less chance of a short.

I personally doubt that these things go off spontaneously.. There has to be a change / trigger event, surely?
 
Not saying there is NOT a problem with (some) of them, and the suppliers..
Just it seems they have got a bad press.. Lets face it, if the car was only just invented, it would be banned on safety grounds these days!
Common sense is quite often hung-up with a persons coat, it appears.

All batteries have a stored energy, and can cause damage, or injury, if abused.
In a perfect world, all charging of batteries would be monitored. - Think of the number of mobile phone chargers left 'on' 24/7 in homes.. There are apparently a significant number of fires started by these each year.

Common sense, knowledge of the 'tools' you are using, and a 'pause and think it through' before taking any action should be the order of the day.
 
PhilP said:
Regarding the problems in aircraft..
Could this be due to cargo holds not being pressurised? - Perhaps some of the cases are 'popping' causing movement and sort-circuits.
Also, knowing these are mainly being sent from China et al, could the packaging be pretty suspect as well? - if each 'unit' was individually wrapped, there would be less chance of a short.

I personally doubt that these things go off spontaneously.. There has to be a change / trigger event, surely?
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I read that by international treaty all cargo holds have to be pressurised.... And yes packaging from China would be suspect... Yes I have serious doubts that these spontaneously explode. I'm not saying they don't or cant but so can a lot of things that are sent by mail.... Coal can spontaneously ignite and so can humans burst into flames... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_human_combustion
What about surface mail, or don't we have that any more?
 
ROSS said:
Think we are getting a bit off track with this and human combustion and sending coal in the mail....... ;D
Surface mail still going....can take up to 3 months to Oz......
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So the batteries would need charging when they got there then?
;) :D ;D ;D
 

Posted by: PhilP

Quote from: ROSS on Today at 10:24:02 AM

    Think we are getting a bit off track with this and human combustion and sending coal in the mail....... ;D
    Surface mail still going....can take up to 3 months to Oz......

So the batteries would need charging when they got there then?
;) :D ;D ;D

roflmao.gif

 
ROSS said:
Think we are getting a bit off track with this and human combustion and sending coal in the mail....... ;D
Surface mail still going....can take up to 3 months to Oz......
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Fair suck of the sav Ross... I was simply trying to point out the dichotomies in the "Rules" I mean for every battery that spontaneously combusts in the post there must be at least 2 human beans who spontaneously combust at home.... Coal is believe it or not far more likley to self ignite especially in the post especially if it is not kept wet. Go on try it; get a half a bucket of coal that is dry and put it in your car and drive over a rough road, soon you will smell smoke..... That's the reason its kept underwater when in large quantities....
 
Note on Surface mail. Officially it can take up to 12 weeks from Australia to anywhere else including NZ. BUT and its a big BUT Australia Post send very few items actually by sea because it costs more than Par Avion... Small parcels sent by sea actually travel by air freight and can take up to 3 weeks. If you post air mail it goes in the next available space in a civilian plane and can take 3 weeks.... So here is the rub, its ok to send small parcels from HK to Australia with batteries in them and declared on the customs declaration by sea but they actually travel air freight.... I made enquiries today of the post mistress and she told me this is the case. If I want to send batteries to the UK I can do so (and pay surface mail rate) but they will go air freight (but not air mail) unless the package is over 3 kilos in weight in which case it will go by sea.... The last "blue battery" I bought from China was sent surface but I received it in 11 days, very fast for surface Mail....
 
Interestingly, just received three 3Ah unprotected 18650 tagged lithium ions through Royal Mail.........

1-IMG_7216.JPG

Does this make me an accessory?

Rik
 
ge_rik said:
Interestingly, just received three 3Ah unprotected 18650 tagged lithium ions through Royal Mail.........

[attachimg=1]

Does this make me an accessory?

Rik
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An accessory to what Rik? Royal mail STUPIDITY? So you cant send these by mail but yes you can in most unsafe packaging.... The tags are insulated though so that must alleviate the PO's fears....
 
tramcar trev said:
An accessory to what Rik? Royal mail STUPIDITY? So you cant send these by mail but yes you can in most unsafe packaging.... The tags are insulated though so that must alleviate the PO's fears....
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When I send a parcel via the Post Office I am asked to read a notice explaining what is not permissible and assure them that my parcel complies - the notice includes lithium batteries. I notice from this leaflet - http://www.royalmail.com/sites/default/files/DangerousGoods_BusinessCustomerBooklet_July2013_0.pdf - that business customers should not send lithium batteries through the post (see page 8 ) unless in equipment (p9) - and "Posting prohibited goods or restricted goods (where you do not comply with the relevant terms and conditions), could result in prosecution." (p1).

Maybe I should hand myself in to my nearest Post Office.... [e]281[/e] [e]279[/e]

Rik

Edit - And yet, two spare batteries can be sent with a piece of equipment which contains that battery (p 10 ). So, you can't send them loosely without the equipment, but you can if a piece of equipment is in the same parcel. Errrr ..... mmmmm .... (sorry, lost for words)
 
What about sending them in a battery box?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1PCS-4-x-18650-Plastic-Transparent-White-Battery-Case-Holder-Storage-Box-/261264940109?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item3cd49a9c4d&_uhb=1

or; http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Plastic-Battery-Storage-Case-Box-Holder-for-4-x-18650-Black-with-6-Wire-Leads-/320823838932?pt=AU_Electronics_Batteries_Chargers&hash=item4ab29748d4&_uhb=1
they are for the purposes of the exercise "equipment" that need batteries to function... and you may be able to get spares sent as well...

Maybe I should hand myself in to my nearest Post Office.... If you do please ensure you are wrapped correctly and labled fragile...
 
To satisfy Ross' desire for plug and play battery packs there is also this item, just ensure you DO NOT USE Anti Batteries they are dangerous; http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5V-Mobile-Power-Supply-USB-Battery-Charger-18650-Box-2A-/260859409161?pt=AU_MobilePhoneAccessories&hash=item3cbc6eb309&_uhb=1
 
tramcar trev said:
To satisfy Ross' desire for plug and play battery packs there is also this item, just ensure you DO NOT USE Anti Batteries they are dangerous; http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5V-Mobile-Power-Supply-USB-Battery-Charger-18650-Box-2A-/260859409161?pt=AU_MobilePhoneAccessories&hash=item3cbc6eb309&_uhb=1
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Or
"Thankyou for your bought, have a nice day"

Rik
 
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