Help - blue battery dimensions

ge_rik

ge_rik

British narrow gauge (esp. Southwold and W&LLR)
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Hi all
I'm currently on my hols in rural France and, as usual, I'm doing a bit of modelling whilst I'm here. I've just staryed construction of a scratchbuilt Manning Wardle 0-6-0PT to go on a Piko motor block. As I flew here by Ryan Air with only hand baggage, I have minimal tools and equipment. I measured the chassis before I came away, but forgot to measure the battery - one of those blue 12v li-ions from China. Has anyone got one to hand they could measure for me?

I'd prefer the dimensions of the battery with the blue cover removed, but will be ok with the dimensions of the case if you've not removed it.

I know the actual cell packs vary in length but they tend to be the same width and depth - and these are the critical dimensions I need. I'd be a bit p'd off if I got back home and found I'd underestimated the space needed for the battery by a couple of mm.

Thanks in anticipation.

Rik
 
I have several. They are all different sizes.
 
Madman said:
I have several. They are all different sizes.
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Yes depending on the capacity.... BUT considerable space can be gained by removing the blue shrink wrap and cardboard and recovering in Gaffa Tape. If there is going to be an explosion the blue shrink wrap over cardboard is not going to offer much protection. If you do an eBay search the dimensions are usually provided....
 
tramcar trev said:
Yes depending on the capacity.... BUT considerable space can be gained by removing the blue shrink wrap and cardboard and recovering in Gaffa Tape. If there is going to be an explosion the blue shrink wrap over cardboard is not going to offer much protection. If you do an eBay search the dimensions are usually provided....
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So it does - thanks Trev, hadn't spotted that. The one I have on order comes up as Size: 115x62x21 (mm).

Yes, I too have removed the cases from all my blue batteries. Some of the cases include as much packing as battery. I tend to construct my own box for the battery to give it a modicum of protection - hopefully that will be sufficient. I wouldn't have been able to fit the batteries into my locos without removing the case.

Rik
 
ROSS said:
Blue cover removed? Sheesh..no way Jose!! ;D


BOOM!!
Click to expand...

Have to agree with you Ross.
 
ge_rik said:
So it does - thanks Trev, hadn't spotted that. The one I have on order comes up as Size: 115x62x21 (mm).

Yes, I too have removed the cases from all my blue batteries. Some of the cases include as much packing as battery. I tend to construct my own box for the battery to give it a modicum of protection - hopefully that will be sufficient. I wouldn't have been able to fit the batteries into my locos without removing the case.

Rik
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I have discovered that JAYCAR sell "jiffy boxes" that I can fit 4 of the 4.8Ah cells into that make up into a considerably smaller pack and gives a rigid mounting point for a switch and balance charge socket. I understand Ross' mild hysteria so if you dont feel confident dont do this at home... But in my case necessity is the mother of invention :o
 
tramcar trev said:
I have discovered that JAYCAR sell "jiffy boxes" that I can fit 4 of the 4.8Ah cells into that make up into a considerably smaller pack and gives a rigid mounting point for a switch and balance charge socket.
Click to expand...
Another useful idea, thanks Trev.

Rik
 
Ross I take your point. And I'm no expert... But having said that if one of these cells does catch fire, explode or cause any havoc a bit of cardboard wrapping is not going to give any protection... in fact it could make potential disaster harder to prediagnose as any swelling cant be seen... I did say that if you are not confident then don't try this at home. I'm incidentally not posting "how to's" on YouTube but many are and many are getting away with it with complete safety and good results. I also wonder about redress in the event that a totally unmodified battery goes bang, who does one litigate against as damage could be disastrous, could mean the loss of your house via fire etc etc... and some Chinaman on eBay won't be responsible...It all comes down to common sense, some have it some don't as I said if you don't feel confident then don't try it...
The video that I posted shows a safe way to dismantle these things and reassemble them into workable battery packs...
Am I advocating participation in a dangerous activity? Maybe but this is statistically far less dangerous than just about any other modelling activity going, including using the internet to make a purchase or driving on a public road.
 
We seem to be having an awful lot of posts about these pesky blue batteries. :(

Are they anything like those blue pills? ;) ;) nudge nudge


;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
 
The blue pills are far more hazardous.... Well with the benefit of experience :'( :-X

Yes the point is that maybe we should all (well we protagonists) take a chill pill ( lithium based)....

I still believe that smoking is far more hazardous than these blue batteries...

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aviation-international-news/2012-02-01/battery-fires-keeping-li-ion-caged
 
As this debate was inspired by an innocent enquiry on my part, I feel duty bound to make a contribution. I acknowledge that there are risks associated with this form of technology and, like Trev, I am willing to take this risk to take advantage of the benefits these batteries offer to our hobby.

There are plenty of examples on the web of how these batteries can be used safely in all types of models - car, boat, plane, helicopter, etc., so why not train? I would like to see a reasoned and sensible discussion about how we can make good use of these batteries on this forum.

I for one will continue to use these batteries, both with cases on and cases removed. I appreciate the risks and will take what precautions I can. I would also like to investigate various other forms of this type of battery. Hobbyking, for example, sell lipo batteries in hard cases and in their soft form and provide cases for modellers to make their own configurations of soft cells.

Please, can those who have accumulated experience of using this technology maybe from other hobbies help to bring us back on track and share their experiences making safe and effective use of this type of battery. Maybe there is a safer way for me to use soft cells to power my locos. Maybe I should be using protected cylindrical lipo cells, are they safer - if so, what's the best way of interlinking them into 3S packs?

Maybe we need a new thread to take this forward.

Rik
 
Thanks Ross. I'm assuming that 'protected' cells are inherently safer to use than 'unprotected' cells - particularly for inexperienced users.

At the moment, I have installed these batteries in my locos so they are not readily removable which on reflection seems unwise. I've worked out that it would be safer to have them removable for storage and particularly during recharging so I can monitor whether they are beginning to puff up.

Rik
 
ge_rik said:
As this debate was inspired by an innocent enquiry on my part, I feel duty bound to make a contribution. I acknowledge that there are risks associated with this form of technology and, like Trev, I am willing to take this risk to take advantage of the benefits these batteries offer to our hobby.

There are plenty of examples on the web of how these batteries can be used safely in all types of models - car, boat, plane, helicopter, etc., so why not train? I would like to see a reasoned and sensible discussion about how we can make good use of these batteries on this forum.

I for one will continue to use these batteries, both with cases on and cases removed. I appreciate the risks and will take what precautions I can. I would also like to investigate various other forms of this type of battery. Hobbyking, for example, sell lipo batteries in hard cases and in their soft form and provide cases for modellers to make their own configurations of soft cells.

Please, can those who have accumulated experience of using this technology maybe from other hobbies help to bring us back on track and share their experiences making safe and effective use of this type of battery. Maybe there is a safer way for me to use soft cells to power my locos. Maybe I should be using protected cylindrical lipo cells, are they safer - if so, what's the best way of interlinking them into 3S packs?

Maybe we need a new thread to take this forward.

Rik
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Likewise Rik, despite what may appear as a cavalier attitude to these things I am not advocating that anyone throw caution to the winds and try to exterminate themselves. I am trying to suggest that there are risks in everything we do and if you feel confident and can solder with a reasonable degree of competence then soldering wires onto cells is less dangerous than many day to day activities we ALL undertake.
If you feel uncomfortable unwrapping these blue batteries to get a lot more space around them then Hobby King sell them as single cells and you can then make up your own custom size battery pack. They also sell silicone soft cases to put your custom made packs into, not that they are going to offer you any protection in the event that a cell/s decide to explode. See; http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/RC_PRODUCT_SEARCH.asp?searchType=10&strSearch=single+cell&location=AL&idCategory=&sortBy=Size2&NumPerPage=20&currentPage=
Notice they come with a warning re soldering the wires to them! My advice when you are doing this is to a) prepare everything, cut wires to length,any that are to be joined on a tab I would twist together and tin the wires. b) using a very hot iron and after thoroughly cleaning the battery terminals/tabs tin the terminals/tabs and allow to cool. c) then using a hot iron ( hot is best as you can do the job quickly and don't transfer as much heat to the cell) solder the wires in place.
I'm not an expert on the topic of these batteries but I am an expert on the topic of soldering so I can share my knowledge with confidence. Back in the real world when I was actually working for a living we were told to put cells into the freezer for 30mins to make the cells as cold as possible before soldering up into packs, that's an added precaution you can take.
Now as to legalities. I cant (nor can anyone) abrogate my responsibility by referring you to a website to show you how to do anything, doesn't work that way... If you take my cavalier attitude to life, man, the universe and all that then you are in the same club but if you maim yourself then you cant sue me for offering you advice, morally I would be devastated but I would not be legally responsible for your own actions. If the law was any other way then this forum and all the others on any topic may as well shut up shop for fear of disseminating information dangerous to life and limb...
 
Hi Trev
I've been doing a fair bit of background reading since I started this thread and come across all manner of dubious practices discussed on other forums - including the suggestion to use a paint stripping heat gun on heatshrink wrapping around a bundle of soft cells - which I don't think I'll try.

Given that these batteries are now found in most portable devices (including this tablet) I had was under the impression that hobby lithium batteries could be treated in much the same way as their less volatile predecessors (NiMh, NCd) but I'm beginning to appreciate they need to be handled differently. For example, as indicated above, I've been following the accepted practice among railway modellers of installing batteries permanently and charging them through a switch and socket. I now realise this is not really applicable for lithium batteries as there is greater risk of catastrophic battery failure. Hence, better to have the batteries readily removable.

Presumably there are other railway modellers who are using lithium battery power, but there's precious little information out there at present. By contrast, the net is knee-deep in info about the technology on car, boat and plane forums. It's a question of trying to sort the wheat from the chaff or the useful from the, shall we say, inadvisable.

In the meantime, looks like there is only a handful of us on this forum treading this path and inevitably, we will have to learn from others' tangential experiences and from our own trials and errors. Let's just hope our errors are not too irrecoverable.

Looks like I'm going to have to experiment with cylindrical cells for my next loco as there's not enough room for soft cells. As I'm not a cavalier (does that make me a roundhead?), I'll go for new 18650 cells such as these ( http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-X-ULTRAFIRE-LITHIUM-RECHARGEABLE-BATTERY-3-7V-18650-4000mah-LI-ON-UK-/111388752342?pt=UK_ConsumerElectronics_Batteries_SM&hash=item19ef4979d6 ) rather than trying to recycle old ones out of a laptop or drill battery pack. I'm presently trying to find some higher capacity cells with solder tags - the only ones I can find with tags are 1.6Ah.

Rik.
 
I have 4 x 18650 cells but mine are only 2.2Ah, untagged.
From what I read ALL 18650 cells are protected which accounts for the length. Depending on the process of manufacture some of them do not like to have wires soldered to the ends because the internal wiring can be melted off the ends. IF the internal wiring is welded on then there is not a soldered joint to melt. How do you tell the difference? If you look carefully at the + end you can see a couple of small marks where the internal wiring has been welded on, if they are soldered then there are no marks. Sourceing tagged ( and therefore safer to solder wires to) 18650 cells can be frustrating, as we have seen most of the Ultra Fire cells on eBay are fake and in reality have only a fraction of the claimed capacity and the only way to measure the real capacity is to use a balance charger but by then you have forked out your hard earned on a bunch of 200mAh lions...
These are tagged and 5.3Ah..... and are cheaper than a 4.8Ah lipo.... http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4x-GTL-18650-3-7v-Li-ion-Rechargeable-Battery-w-Tab-5300mAh-For-Torch-F714-/251378985735?pt=AU_Electronics_Batteries_Chargers&hash=item3a875aeb07&_uhb=1
Or you could go the full hog and get a spot welder for batteries; http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Hand-held-Spot-Battery-Welder-Welding-Machine-forLaptop-Cellphone-Battery-220V-c-/300832579829?pt=AU_Welding&hash=item460b04e0f5&_uhb=1
 
tramcar trev said:
I have 4 x 18650 cells but mine are only 2.2Ah, untagged.
From what I read ALL 18650 cells are protected which accounts for the length. Depending on the process of manufacture some of them do not like to have wires soldered to the ends because the internal wiring can be melted off the ends. IF the internal wiring is welded on then there is not a soldered joint to melt. How do you tell the difference? If you look carefully at the + end you can see a couple of small marks where the internal wiring has been welded on, if they are soldered then there are no marks. Sourceing tagged ( and therefore safer to solder wires to) 18650 cells can be frustrating, as we have seen most of the Ultra Fire cells on eBay are fake and in reality have only a fraction of the claimed capacity and the only way to measure the real capacity is to use a balance charger but by then you have forked out your hard earned on a bunch of 200mAh lions...
These are tagged and 5.3Ah..... and are cheaper than a 4.8Ah lipo.... http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4x-GTL-18650-3-7v-Li-ion-Rechargeable-Battery-w-Tab-5300mAh-For-Torch-F714-/251378985735?pt=AU_Electronics_Batteries_Chargers&hash=item3a875aeb07&_uhb=1
Or you could go the full hog and get a spot welder for batteries; http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Hand-held-Spot-Battery-Welder-Welding-Machine-forLaptop-Cellphone-Battery-220V-c-/300832579829?pt=AU_Welding&hash=item460b04e0f5&_uhb=1
Click to expand...

I'll pass on the spot welder, but am tempted by these tabbed batteries. As they're in HK they'll post to UK
Rik
 
ge_rik said:
I'll pass on the spot welder, but am tempted by these tabbed batteries. As they're in HK they'll post to UK
Rik
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If you buy them and run them over your balance charger you could then tell us all if they are 5.5Ah :o :o :o :o
 
tramcar trev said:
If you buy them and run them over your balance charger you could then tell us all if they are 5.5Ah :o :o :o :o
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Unfortunately my optimism was misplaced

"Sorry, We are not accept ship to UK"

So, the highest Ah rating for tagged 18650s I can find in UK is 2.3Ah, though I have found 5Ah in untagged and I've ordered those.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201056896378

and some battery holders - which are not ideal but will hopefully do the job
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171324968193

Rik
 
ROSS said:
Lithium metal batteries transportation update

Lithium metal batteries transported as cargo will be restricted to Cargo Aircraft Only from 1 January 2015. The prohibition on the carriage on passenger aircraft only applies to lithium metal batteries when shipped by themselves, and does not apply to batteries packed with equipment or contained in equipment.
IATA (International Air Transpoprt Authority.

These batteries are being returned to senders by postal authorities in Mainland China and Hong Kong as many are individual packages sent in ordinary airmail.So..it looks like buy in your own country (although the country may ban the batteries mailed ON THEIR OWN travelling in the mail BUT NOT if contained in equipment). UK already does so.

The following is also pertinent.

The Civil Aviation Authority and the Department of Transport have agreed new rules with Royal Mail to prohibit lithium batteries being sent via its postal network.

This means that lithium batteries, from the small coin cell types to the larger batteries found in your digital camera or smartphone, are no longer accepted by Royal Mail when sent in a package on their own. However, it’s still fine to send batteries in the post if they’re sent with, or contained within other equipment.

So, it’s fine to send a digital camera with a lithium battery inside it via Royal Mail, but it’s prohibited to send a battery on its own. And it’s fine to send lithium batteries by themselves as long as it’s not via Royal Mail. NiMH and other rechargeable batteries are not affected by the changes.
Click to expand...

Sounds like there will be a lot of demand for an almost nil-cost piece of useless "equipment" (whatever that means) for sending along with lithium batteries to legally get round this restriction. Any ideas?
 
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