Hello I'm new to the forum, and my first question.

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Fizbin01

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Hey,
I just wanted to say hello from Texas. I've been reading a bunch of your posts and enjoy the read.
I haven't posted yet but here goes...

I'm going to be developing a rocky hillside (That's what central Texas in made of) with a G-scale layout.
I've done this before on a much smaller scale in the past. It was a much simpler setup outside with no elevation changes.

This new location has some pretty severe in spots, elevation changes. With this said, what is the absolute maximum amount of elevation change I can have, 4 to 1, 10 to 1,,, etc?
I don't envision very long engines or cars (12-18") but can only assume that would be a spec needed for turnout radius anyway?
Some of these inclines will have a turn (radius) in them as well for a series of switch-backs.

Thoughts? And thanks for having a nice forum, I look forward to sharing pictures of "The Hill Country" as things progress.
 
1:20 (that is 1 inch rise every 20 inches) is regarded as pretty steep but dooable but with limited load and small engines. As you decrease the grade through 1:30 to 1:50 things get better. My own line adopted 1:40 as a minimum, but I ended up with 1 bit around 1:35 that really makes my live steam slow down. But it does make it with 20 Axles load.
 
Blimey! 1:4 sounds like a serious gradient for a non rack railway, even more so if it's on a curve. Realistically, we tend to aim for no more that 1:40 though I know some have pushed that boundary a little.

Rik
 
ge_rik said:
Blimey! 1:4 sounds like a serious gradient for a non rack railway, even more so if it's on a curve. Realistically, we tend to aim for no more that 1:40 though I know some have pushed that boundary a little.

Rik
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Tis possible he could be talking % as they do in the States.
 
dunnyrail said:
Tis possible he could be talking % as they do in the States.
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Hi Jon
Hmmmm ... Not sure how that equates to "the elevation change I can have, 4 to 1, 10 to 1,,, etc?"
I don't think he means 4% (ie 1:25) or 10% (ie 1:10) unless I'm wrong - even so, it's pretty steep!

Rik
 
Hey,
Nope, not %,,, inches,,, it sounds like my even 10-1 would be a horrendous idea.
I would have wasted so much time and effort just to have to redo it.

OK, with that said, I can't lower or chissel down through rock but I certainly can "raise" the lower parts up higher.

Next question:
What can be used as a sub-roadbed so to speak. I've seen some images where folks have decking screwed the tracks to a wooden base of some sort. What I've done in the past is just had about a 1" layer of finely crushed granite with the track sitting on that. There's no drainage issues so nothing should get washed out, so to speak. :) I think attaching the tracks (Piko Brand) to any sort of wood or other material would be very labor intensive and raise the track higher off the ground then I'd like. But, if you guys say that is best practices, that's what I'll do.
 
Welcome.
While many here are more knowledgeable, my garden also is on a slope. Was.
grades present many limitations and challenges. Steep grades….at a minimum, tough on stock and locos.

6% max. That’s my experience. And it is really too much.
fwiw, with my rack locos, 20% is very steep once you include the weight of a couple of cars.
grade is “bad” . If you ever go to live steam, non r/c its very bad, lol.


i would take time to really envision a practical route, and then analyze any needed fills, cuts, supports, and critically, foot access to the right of way. And, a comfortable area from which you can operate. Do not underestimate this. Careful planning will serve you well. Then layout sections of track on the route to help you envision the terrain changes needed. Then, consider stakes, a line of string , all on the route, to give you a good idea of grade.

Take it in sections, in order not to feel overwhelmed. And to allow for changes.

one method i have seen is to build small wooden cribs to support track, ie like smallish crates, slatted, then fill those with ballast. Actually, over fill them, so there is a shoulder like normal roadbed, but the supporting area is cribbed.

The track is level, the cribbing helps keep ballast in place. Real railroads used this. Trestle were built to span small valleys, gorges, cuts, then those trestles later filled.

Assume that without something to hold the ballast, it will , over time, flow away.

On another note, there are excellent polymer adhesives designed for outdoor patio grout/ filling, which while not fool proof, would really help with fixing ballast. The stuff , however, isn’t inexpensive.

While i did not have rocky terrain, I built a proper retaining wall , 4 ft high at its highest, and a planting area 12ft in width, to fill and create a level area. It has changed everything for the better, in terms of operation. It has also brought some sections closer to eye level, which is a delight.

It was a lot of work, and cost as well. Trenched, stringers and wider at the bottom to withstand the fill, carefully fitted cut stones and cap. Worth every dollar and hour. Its fully irrigated, conduit for lighting and accessories, fully planted with pinyons and columnar oaks and smaller plants, affording shaded areas for trains and structures. I had avoided The Full Monty for decades, but, it has made my simple layout a lot more fun and friendly, especially with shade.

A year out from the completion of this project, while i shall eventually ballast my ROW properly, once i finalize my route, (still contemplating a couple of sidings and passing tracks, as well as a potential branch line out and away to other garden areas) i am currently using shredded mulch.

Not realistic, but…easy to shift and support the track, and the best part, i get zero rain splatter and grit. Fwiw,lol. I actually like it this far. While is compresses and swells with precipitation, it doesn’t seem to shift. And in strong summer sun, it doesn’t get as hot as rock. Its a lighter color, btw.

Some variation of this might be your solution, if you’re interested in the brain damage.

if you choose to use posts and stringers for your right of way, there are pre fabricated cement footers available at the chain hardware stores, which fit 4x4s, i believe. I would try to use composite stringers (I beams) to avoid warping and uv damage. You may well consider 2 legs instead of 1 support post in the event you simply cannot properly seat the footers..

The potential downside of post and stringers is room for lineside structures, not to mention really good fit and leveling. And, it can be unattractive.

You will need a surveyors level, imho. Otoh, you build off ground level , at a higher level, for comfort of operation

if you choose switchbacks, switches must be level, and any rise/ drop must not be closer than 2 coach lengths before and after the switch, if you want to avoid frustration in operations.

another thought , from the old lgb planning book, actually a variation assuming the gound is impenetrable, it to basically lay support blocks, and create a ROW path, either with wood or composite, or, stone blocks. Not sure this would work for you.

best of luck.

curves must be level side to side. If you can, it is preferable to keep curves more or less without grade, but this isnt always possible.

regardless of rain, everything shifts and settles. Plan on this, and fix your footers, and your ROW ballast.
 
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I have 4% (1:25) tough going, and most need traction tires or extra weight. If using that (as a last resort) then do not have curves on leading to or from the gradient, this puts more friction on the wheels.

Oh, and welcome to the forum :)
 
Greg Elmassian said:
We have a person in our club that tackled a severe slope with switchbacks:
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So, I'm trying to see where they are. Are they just on the straight runs for inclines and then the radiuses on the ends are level?

How did you attach your track, is it just laying on the grounds or is it affixed to something?

I also see that your track joiners look like some sort of allen wrench clampy thing,,, technical term I'm sure?
 
Wow, that’s an impressive amount of landscaping to climb that slope. Makes my back hurt just looking at all that rock…..

in the uppermost photo, one curve appears to have some grade, (trestle section, far right).

Those clampy things are track clamps, train-li, piko, split jaw are some offerings. Read gregs site for reviews.
split jaw are generally regarded as excellent.

They are the cats meow for reliable track power. ‘Spensive, but worth it. The difference in conductivity and reliability truly is remarkable.

Otoh, clean, tight regular track joiners can work pretty well, for a while. Its grit, moisture and expansion that eventually can cause issues.

you have to remove original joiners and substitute with clamps. The tighten with a hex wrench. Other brands may differ.

if you expand the photo, you clearly see them at a joint on the curve in the foreground. They are, pretty much, like a miniature vice clamp, clamping from the side. Others use a base plate with screw clamps that grab the lower web of the rail and press down against a plate.
 
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stevedenver said:
Wow, that’s an impressive amount of landscaping to climb that slope. Makes my back hurt just looking at all that rock…..

in the uppermost photo, one curve appears to have some grade, (trestle section, far right).

Those clampy things are track clamps, train-li, piko, split jaw are some offerings. Read gregs site for reviews.
split jaw are generally regarded as excellent.

They are the cats meow for reliable track power. ‘Spensive, but ......
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Well as they said in Jurassic Park, "we'll spare no expense..." I'm fine to pay a bit more to never have to screw with something again.

How about the ... affixing the track itself to something more secure? Do you think it's necessary? With the track clamps I'm thinking even less necessary as they are all locked together really tightly.
 
Fizbin01 said:
So, I'm trying to see where they are. Are they just on the straight runs for inclines and then the radiuses on the ends are level?

How did you attach your track, is it just laying on the grounds or is it affixed to something?

I also see that your track joiners look like some sort of allen wrench clampy thing,,, technical term I'm sure?
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Have a look at my build linked below where you can see sundry different methods.

Wood ok but not in contact with earth, roofing felt will help preserve the surface.

Paving slabs, laid on mini walls.

Plastic Decking very good in all conditions, almost indesstructable but does need good support and has expansion/contraction issues.

UPVC white plastic used for soffits, thicker very good but again needs good support. White surface can be lost with roofing felt on top as with wood.

Concrete sub base, use old wood for shuttering on straight runs, UPVC soffit thinner material makes great curves. Shuttering can be reused over and over.

All the above methods tried and tested. But last one not used on my current line except for concrete foundations for walls as my current line is 3-4ft high.
 
Fizbin01 said:
How about the ... affixing the track itself to something more secure? Do you think it's necessary?
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A lot of us have "free floating" track. My track is only fastened on my trestle and that's loosely in just three places over sixteen feet. All the rest is (or was ;)) free floating either on concrete block or Slag-sand base. I use a combination of Split-Jaw and Massoth/Train-Li type rail clamps to join rail sections on my mfx/DCC track powered RR. I've had very few issues related to track connections. I did have a few locations where the rails wanted to separate. These were where I had used Split-Jaw "Over-joiner" rail clamps. Replacing the over-joiner clamps with on-rail clamps solved the problem. I do not recommend over-joiner type rail clamps.

My RR has a maximum grade of 1 in 28 or about 3.5% on the spiral approach to my bridges. The curves on the spiral are mostly LGB R5 with a few R3 sections sprinkled in to tighten it a bit. The rest of my track is mostly LGB brass flex track with a bit of second hand Aristocraft stainless steel flex track thrown in.

I do have one section of rail on block ballasted with crushed quartzite poultry grit that has the ballast glued in place. This segment is pretty much glued in place with the track firmly fixed to the concrete block base. I'm reluctant to do any more until I see how it handles our Winter. It was done early this Spring and has survived Summer without issue. Phil S' RR
 
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What ever way you choose, take your time, start small and let it grow, rather than try to get it all done at once. That way you can try out your method of track base, if it doesn't work it will be easier to change. Most folk have 2 or 3 different track bases on their layouts.
 
All sound advice about gradients, curves and track laying. One thing that has not been mentioned - geared locos, like Shays, Climaxes and Heislers. Bachmann did them for electric power (good luck finding a Heisler at sensible money) and Accucraft (and others, like Regner) did them in live steam all 45 mm gauged. Like their full sized counterparts they are all very capable on steeper grades and tight curves, the Climax has good turn of speed too. I can vouch that if you are ever tempted to go the live steam route a geared loco can be run without radio control, where a rodded loco can't. Max
 
phils2um said:
I do not recommend over-joiner type rail clamps.
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I should have added a caveat. Split-Jaw over-joiner clamps are great for holding together temporary layouts or track that will be pulled up in a couple of years and when it is not desirable to remove the manufacturer's rail joiners. Otherwise, go with on rail clamps.
 
Fizbin01 said:
How about the ...
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Can I quietly suggest you also join a USA based forum, like Mylargescale.com, where there are several folk with gauge-1 layouts in Texas? No disrespect to this forum, but it is a bit UK-centric, so what works for these guys in their tiny gardens may not work for you.
 
imho the members here are….pleasant company, well informed, and very thoughtful.

many members here have substantial layouts indeed. And beautiful, and, a wonderful aesthetic, different but compatible.


Garden railway techniques are pretty universal, be it uk, germany, australia, nz, france, spain, brasil, and several us members.
plantings, not so much.


go and visit, but the tale of the prodigal son may apply…it did for me.
 
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stevedenver said:
Garden railway techniques are pretty universal
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Steve, I wasn't suggesting he stop visiting here. :D I agree with all your points, except the 'universal' one. There are very varied environments which are not found in the typical garden - building a layout in a rocky pine forest in Colorado comes to mind, as does dry Texas rocky hill country.
 
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