Garden Railway Specialists I Recvd a delivery today!!

[stevelewis]

I recvd a delivery of Second Hand items today from GRS. I am always a bit wary of buying S/H items unseen, these were the first S/H items I have ever bought from GRS ( although I have bought New LGB items from them previously)

I bought some trams and a couple of 20 year old Barmerbahn style DR coaches.

All the items I bought were in perfect as new condition, it the case of the trams the items supplied for user fitting ( gates etc)
were still in original packing and unopened.
The wheel treads ( and skids where applicable) were unmarked on all the items!
The prices were quite reasonable compared with new discount prices and nextday delivery was free.

I know there has been some critisism of some retailers S/H items, but I can fault nothing with what has arrived today

Photo attached of one of the trams a 21360 Cologne Tram ( Collecter Item uncatalogued) which I believe is the only decoder on board tram LGB produced) I have the pleasant job of digitizing the others

 

[stevelewis]

I fitted a decoder in one of the other trams this afternoon, although I have fitted the LGB trams previously with decoders ( some hard wired others direct decoder type) I always get a bit frustrated when doing these!

Its not the actual decoder fitting that is the easy bit, the dismantling is simple enough, its the re assembly that requires the time!

It is easy to see that like many items in the LGB range the trams were designed well before digital came on the scene , and the prospect of the end user having to do a dismantling job ( other than lubricating the gears or changing a traction-tyre or light bulb) would never have occured to the designers all those years ago!
Still all is well now i have been running a couple of them on the bit of the line so far laid, I suppose that I should start looking for some catenary

 

[PhilP]

By all means add a catenary for show.. - Though they get in the way, and are a PITA! YMMV, of course.
Do not try to run DCC from a catenary.

 

[stevelewis]

For your info I have used catenary several times in the 39 years that I have been involved with LGB & Garden railways, fully aware of the electrical implications of using live catenary & Digital systems

The attached photos date from around `85 with the RhB GE 2/4 ( signature version) when I made my own catenary
The rack Loco phot is from around `87

 

[Dtsteam]

I appreciate that this is drift but what exactly is the issue with dcc and live overhead ? I've been told its a no-no but not why.

 

[stevelewis]

It apparently as far as I see it is the same as connecting 2 seperate power units together at the low voltage side and having the mains-power plug disconnected from the wall socket

So that there is a possible chance of touching the metal prongs of the disconnected plug and getting an electric shock from it, as the low voltage power gets fed back from the 'other' power unit and is then converted back to high volts by the transformer in the 'disconnected' from the mains.

Most power units and tranformers appear to have a warning about this in their documentation these days.

How it relates to powered catenary I assume refers to if 2 seperate power sources are used to power track and catenary and a similar 'shock' system could arise, It is noted in the Instructions of the trams I just bought that Catenary MUST not be powered if MTS is in use.

Although MTS/digital systems obviously makes the need to use powered catenary redundant.

As an aside the early LGB 2040 Crocodiles had a set up on board which allowed both track pickup and catenary power at the same time -- one to power the motors and the other to provide consant lighting which could also provide coach lighting power!

I never actually bothered to try this, but maybe this could have been hazardous! (the early Crocs had a switch panel in one cab which allowed different power power sources to be selected, each of the switches had a small green & red light to indicate the setting)
I hope I have not woffled too long here!!

 

[trammayo]

Here's a simple question from the uninitiated (dinosaur & decorated Luddite); Could you not just switch from track power to overhead (and vice versa) with a triple pole switch - meaning you could use one or the other but not both at the same time?

 

[PhilP]

Here's a simple question from the uninitiated (dinosaur & decorated Luddite); Could you not just switch from track power to overhead (and vice versa) with a triple pole switch - meaning you could use one or the other but not both at the same time?

I think you mean double pole, three position? - We don't run three-phase.

The potential (sorry!) for shock might be one reason..

I believe that a catenary system is so electrically noisy, and you get intermittent changes in the voltage from the overhead, that it would confuse the decoder. This would be the same as very dirty track, where the loco's 'drop-out' and start-up again??

 

[Brixham]

Is it down to safety?

A controller powering the track set to full forward without a train could deliver +25 volts to the rails.

A controller powering the catenary set to full reverse could deliver -25 volts to the catenary...and a common rail

Simultaneously touching both the catenary and rails could be rather shocking....50 volts...

And I think there is a voltage level where unexposed conducors isn't legal...and think it's 50 volts

Probably not enough to be lethal, but not nice...

Also this would be enough to fry a decoder

If the rail supply was digital...this again is mid 20's volts

Back to the thread.....I've always had good mail order service from GRS....
But I much prefer to drop in and browse...

Malcolm

 

[trammayo]

I think you mean double pole, three position? - We don't run three-phase.

The potential (sorry!) for shock might be one reason..

I believe that a catenary system is so electrically noisy, and you get intermittent changes in the voltage from the overhead, that it would confuse the decoder. This would be the same as very dirty track, where the loco's 'drop-out' and start-up again??

Well a changeover switch anyway - I was just thinking of the two rail track polarity and the overhead (early morning sleep deprivation). Three phase - yes I'm used to that (or was).

And why would overhead wiring be noisy if good contact was made? Thank goodness I can't afford DCC - my brain wouldn't cope with all the problems about the subject posted on this forum alone

 

[PhilP]

'If good contact was made'.. Two bits of metal rubbing along, and you hope they stay in intimate contact.
I think the spikes/noise/intermittent contact would probably cause the decoder to fail in short order??

It may well be to be 'safe' for any situation. - Ancient lighting from catenary/power from rails. Those who have power on rails AND catenary.

Of course, a VERY brave soul could try it!! - I AM NOT ADVOCATING ANYONE TRY THIS! Potentially too expensive on decoders.

 

[Ralphmp]

Steve

I was in GRS at the weekend and all the recent posts on rack locomotives swayed me towards the attached. The loco, like your purchase, is second-hand and in pristine condition with no marks on the skates. I wonder if they were part of the same collection as the whistle was still in its (unopened) packaging.

Also, if anyone is looking for second-hand track, GRS had a fair amount in on Saturday last.

Best wishes
Phil

 

[stevelewis]

It was LGB Trams & Coaches which I bought, as mentioned all mint and unused the date of Manufacture of the coaches was 1995! The Trams were date coded 2002 & 2006.
One of the trams has a Lyra current collector ( the Bow Type) thes have a pair of flat sections of springy metal at their base to provide springing for the bow to contact the OHL. A good sign of usage on this type of collector is the fact that as soon as the bow starts to move agains the bow the spring metal becomes brighter with the movement (friction) On this one there was no sign that the bow had ever been moved!

( actually there is now 'cos I have been fiddling with it )

Just goes to show though that sometimes one can get good S/H from the retailers!

PS re the rack locos i actually bought 2 of the latest production Red FO ones at rather good prices so the yellow sound one is now for sale!

 

[ntpntpntp]

As far as DCC and catenary goes, the main problem is likely to be the poor contact relying on one or two pantographs for one side of the pickup. The other half of the circuit would need to go to one side of the wheel pickups, which would then make reverse-loops out of the question.

There are plenty of DC examples of using the catenary and one common rail to allow two trains to be controlled on the same track, but given that DCC gives you independent control of multiple locos anyway I don't think there's any real point or advantage to trying to use catenary with DCC.

 

[stevelewis]

As far as DCC and catenary goes, the main problem is likely to be the poor contact relying on one or two pantographs for one side of the pickup. The other half of the circuit would need to go to one side of the wheel pickups, which would then make reverse-loops out of the question.

There are plenty of DC examples of using the catenary and one common rail to allow two trains to be controlled on the same track, but given that DCC gives you independent control of multiple locos anyway I don't think there's any real point or advantage to trying to use catenary with DCC.

Exactly there is absolutely no point in using DCC with catenary, just as well stick to the proven digital method of using the 2 rails! Any way one of the things that used to annoy me in the past when i used catenary was the noise of the pantographs scraping on the overhead wire, I used various things to overcome this such as graphite paste which did work for a short time, but it became irksome to keep applying more paste, so eventually I arranged the pantographs so that they did not actually touch the overhead! by reducing their height to just below the wire ( a bit hit & miss though as occasionally a bit of uneven track would raise the loco a bit too much so contact was made.

I did actually use live overhead on an early line to achieve 2 trains indpendantly controlled on one track , it worked fine, but obviously one had to keep ones wits about them to aviod collisions, just as we do in these modern digital times no doubt!!