Feedback request - Beginners' guide to kit built battery locos

One suggestion, if the option for insulated wheelsets exists, then taking that option gives your model more flexibility, i.e. could be run on a powered track without causing a short. (and of course leaves the door open for track power option).

I have several friends that have set up locos to run from battery and/or analog track and/or DCC. This gives them sort of a "universal" loco for going to a friend's house.

Greg
 
Paul M said:
Certainly true for 16mm scale 32mm gauge ,I would have thought. 45mm gaugers would use the motor block from LGB or similar
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From what I have seen Paul most newer larger scale kits are supplied with motors and drivetrains to fit around their designs, both for 32 and 45 mm gauge applications. All the result of the benefits of 3d and laser cutting techniques that have led to the boom in these products. A notable exception being GRS, their's predate these production advances and of nessesity had to be made to suit production blocks at the time to sell. Although they do offer bespoke metal chassis to fit. The gauging options being offered may be restricted by the loco type, "outside frame" wheel designs in particular. And a lot of locos are very small as prototypes. The fitting of a motor block from a mainstream product would add an extra level of cost too, unless the kit maker offered a discounted " no running gear" option.

Even if you could find a motor block that fits without having to modify the loco "body". The issue exists in 009 (1:76 on N gauge, and I dare say other gauges), trying to source a motor block from a mainstream N gauge product to fit an 009 "bodykit", but I see some strides being made now with Kato producing off the shelf block offerings for that purpose. Possibly as a result of their partnership with Peco.

Having said that I fitted a USAT block (just about the right w/b) to my OcCre tram, the OcCre conversion not being available, or offered, at that time. That was 15 + years ago. Now I would use one of those G1 nose hung motors, a much more practical proposition, especially for battery conversion.Max

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maxi-model said:
As Jon says the market for kit built electric powered locos,, in the UK and outside of 16 mm (c 1:19) and 7/8" (c1:13), is virtually non existent. Yes, the makers of these products either offer an option or make their products readily regaugable between 32 & 45mm, the latter being the domain of predominantly associated, but not exclusively by, track powered "G Scale" operators. The reason - those scales tend to be favoured by those who operate "dead rail".

I own a GRS make L&B 2-6-2 Manning Wardle that was supplied as a kit. I originally built it, as supplied, as a track powered loco. After a while its performance dropped off due to regular track debris contamination and as a result of its wheel configuration. The UK climate is great for promoting that type of frustration. I removed the pick ups and installed a battery conversion to solve the issue. I included sound and working smoke later. It was my first battery loco that led me, along with a similarly recalcitrant Accucraft K-27, along the path from track to battery power for the whole fleet, eventually.

That first loco, as a design necessity, incorporated insulated wheels as its design was intended to incorporate current pick ups from the outset. See below the simple pick up arrangement I have now removed - LGB plungers soldered to brass strips on a plasticard mounting plate, for insulation, wires straight to the motor. The problem with converting a lot of the current "kit" product available is that it is not just working out how and where to fit pick-ups - that is not an option concidered in a lot of designs. You also have to see if they will need wheels replacing, as the may well not be insulated as supplied, or even conducting at all, glass filled plastics are becoming common on these products. It also follows that number of these kits, as is the nature of the market, tend to represent smaller prototypes that feature 0-4-0/0-6-0 wheel configurations that could lead to an increase in the likelihood of running issues. Max

View attachment 308091

P.S. I now have a fleet of 45 mm locos I can now run on fellow 16 NGM Association members' similarly gauged lines - most of them are dead rail. I also have a few that can regauge to 32 mm.
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That's fascinating. Were the pickups supplied with the kit or something you had to make yourself?

Rik
 
maxi-model said:
Even if you could find a motor block that fits without having to modify the loco "body". The issue exists in 009 (1:76 on N gauge, and I dare say other gauges), trying to source a motor block from a mainstream N gauge product to fit an 009 "bodykit", but I see some strides being made now with Kato producing off the shelf block offerings for that purpose. Possibly as a result of their partnership with Peco.

Having said that I fitted a USAT block (just about the right w/b) to my OcCre tram, the OcCre conversion not being available, or offered, at that time. That was 15 + years ago. Now I would use one of those G1 nose hung motors, a much more practical proposition, especially for battery conversion.Max





View attachment 308105
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That's interesting. In my 00 days, it was common practice for manufacturers to produce body shells to fit on commercially produced chassis or motor bogies and the big names used to sell their chassis and bogies specifically for that purpose. For a brief while, I dabbled with Gn15 but simply couldn't find anywhere that sold motor bogies so gave up. A trawl of various forums suggested it was a real problem. It does seem to be increasingly difficult to buy 45mm gauge motor blocks in the UK (or am I just looking in the wrong places?). And, of course, as has been said, I don't think anyone produces track powered motor blocks for 32mm gauge - unless Dapol have started selling their chassis separately (anyone seen any???).
 
Whoever used to carry all the Dapol spares, I believe has passed that over to 'someone else'? - I must look it up..

You could get chassis from them (not for all models) but they were expensive, not particularly useful for 16mm, and by our standards very fragile. - IMHO..

Perhaps I am just heavy-handed?

PhilP.
 
ge_rik said:
That's fascinating. Were the pickups supplied with the kit or something you had to make yourself?

Rik
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They were part of the kit as supplied by GRS. You had to assemble the parts though. Basically it's 6 LGB "plunger" type contacts, 2 brass strips and a pre- cut 50 thou plasticard plate to mount the strips on (it provides the insulation from the rest of the chassis). I had to solder the "plungers" onto the brass strips, a paper template to get the alignment right was included in the instruction sheet. Holes, pre tapped for its 6BA mounting post bolts, were supplied already bored into the frame stretchers. The fixing bolts were 3/4", with plastic spacing sleeves to set the panel with the pick-ups at the right height. The plate metal chassis, as supplied, was designed to accomodate this arrangement. It's simple and could be adapted to other products, but with the caveats regarding wheel insulation. Those contacts are easy to get. Max
 
ge_rik said:
That's interesting. In my 00 days, it was common practice for manufacturers to produce body shells to fit on commercially produced chassis or motor bogies and the big names used to sell their chassis and bogies specifically for that purpose. For a brief while, I dabbled with Gn15 but simply couldn't find anywhere that sold motor bogies so gave up. A trawl of various forums suggested it was a real problem. It does seem to be increasingly difficult to buy 45mm gauge motor blocks in the UK (or am I just looking in the wrong places?). And, of course, as has been said, I don't think anyone produces track powered motor blocks for 32mm gauge - unless Dapol have started selling their chassis separately (anyone seen any???).
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The problem with using motor blocks, in any scale, is that the right one can sometimes be difficult to source and can be pricey. There has to be a donor and that donor needs to have the about the right w/b to match your project, or you compromise you project to fit (or use the tramway motion covers dodge). So a lot of the time you are buying a complete loco to just get the block and the extra cost that entails (ok, you might be able to resell the body). Are you really going to break a £500 Heljan O gauge loco just for the block ?

However, for 45 mm various USAT and old or Bachmann reissues of Aristocraft blocks are available. I think there is a lot of mileage to be got out of the 3d printed gearboxes, that PDF and Dean Goods make, allied to the good quality Delrin chain and sprocket drives.Max
 
Hello Rik,

Great story you wrote about batteries!
What i missed was the great advantage of the LIPO's delivering a constant high voltage up to the point that they are empty.
Because of this only one LIPO battery can be used very well instead of a 6V 4xAA pack, as i experienced in my old Playmobil trains.
For details see my earlier post on this subject in here.
Finally: i should emphasize much more the possible danger of the LIPO's to burst into flames when loaded wrongly.
I solved that problem by using a board as you describes but moreover also a standard USB loading connector-cable-loader system so no other loading system and other Voltage than supplied by this USB loader could be used. This makes the system even safe for kids.
Gerard
 
Gerard said:
Hello Rik,

Great story you wrote about batteries!
What i missed was the great advantage of the LIPO's delivering a constant high voltage up to the point that they are empty.
Because of this only one LIPO battery can be used very well instead of a 6V 4xAA pack, as i experienced in my old Playmobil trains.
For details see my earlier post on this subject in here.
Finally: i should emphasize much more the possible danger of the LIPO's to burst into flames when loaded wrongly.
I solved that problem by using a board as you describes but moreover also a standard USB loading connector-cable-loader system so no other loading system and other Voltage than supplied by this USB loader could be used. This makes the system even safe for kids.
Gerard
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Thanks Gerard
Useful info. I might add something about it to the batteries for locos page

Rik
 
Gerard said:
Hello Rik,

Great story you wrote about batteries!
What i missed was the great advantage of the LIPO's delivering a constant high voltage up to the point that they are empty.
Because of this only one LIPO battery can be used very well instead of a 6V 4xAA pack, as i experienced in my old Playmobil trains.
For details see my earlier post on this subject in here.
Finally: i should emphasize much more the possible danger of the LIPO's to burst into flames when loaded wrongly.
I solved that problem by using a board as you describes but moreover also a standard USB loading connector-cable-loader system so no other loading system and other Voltage than supplied by this USB loader could be used. This makes the system even safe for kids.
Gerard
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Actually, the best battery for maintaining voltage over time is NiCad, they have an exceptionally sharp "knee"



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Nickel metal hydride is similar, but more dropoff during discharge
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Lithium Ion is actually the worst:
This-is-a-voltage-V-versus-Time-s-graph-of-a-37-volt-lithium-ion-cell-phone-battery.png

But modern cell phones, computers, etc, all have switching power supplies to compensate for the voltage falloff.

Greg
 
So, you got me thinking Greg. The main gist of most "which battery to use" topics, tend to centre on the actual energy capacity (and sometimes discharge capability) and resulting run time that could be achieved with a specific type. Sooo, Max went agoogling. A dangerous pastime, a little knowledge and all that :D

Nickel–cadmium battery - Wikipedia The one and only time I brought those was when I was the proud owner of a Casio 2.5" screen mono LCD TV in 1986. Seemed prudent. My thinking, never miss a play in an NFL game, in the UK, no matter where I am..... on a 2.5" 405 line B&W TV :rofl:

Nickel–metal hydride battery - Wikipedia Quite a jump in energy density on Ni-Cd and generally seen, rightly or otherwise, as the "safe" compromise option when compared to Li-Po.

And then we come to Lithium polymer battery - Wikipedia The one that made a lot of devices a lot more practical, right up to an electric car with a useful range. If you want to squeeze those milliamp hours into a smaller package then.........Happy Christmas. Max

P.S. Now back to the Royal Society lecture on BBC 4.
 
Wikipedia needs to be supported by references and Wiki pages are often the effort of a single person, with limited and opinionated experience.

The Wiki entry for nicads is ok.

The Wiki entry is ok, but the big jump in battery density is not really true, you could get high density nicads, they just were more expensive than nimih. Also the part about loss of capacity show the person who wrote the article knows nothing of that failure mode (as do 90% of the engineers in the world)

The entry for lithium is dated, referencing that lithium iron batteries have been "tested" they are now commonly available

Overall, with smart chargers, you cannot beat the density of lithium based batteries, getting the LiFePO batteries adds more safety and you should see them in cars next year, Ford will have them in select models.

Greg
 
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