Chipping an LGB 2015....?

[Zerogee]

Just a hypothetical question, because I don't have one (yet - I do keeping looking at ones that come up for sale) - but when chipping one of the dual-motor versions of the 2015 loco family (the Stainz-type 0-4-0 loco with powered tender), has anyone run into the same sort of problems that the Frank S variants can have - ie: that the tender runs significantly faster than the loco? Or are these better matched, both being basic LGB 4-wheel motor blocks (albeit one with coupling rods and motion, and one without)?

To chip one of these, is it better to use 2 decoders (eg: two L decoders, or an L and an LS) so as to be able to adjust the running curve of each to match them, or will a single decoder (XL or XLS) coupled to both motors suffice?

Jon.

 

[dutchelm]

The only problem with one decoder is the need to run 8 wires between the loco & tender.
If the motors are OK there shouldn't be any problems with 2 decoders. The speed differential usually means a dying motor anyway.

 

[Zerogee]

The only problem with one decoder is the need to run 8 wires between the loco & tender.
If the motors are OK there shouldn't be any problems with 2 decoders. The speed differential usually means a dying motor anyway.

Thanks Mike, good point about the cabling, though if I did that it would probably just be a single flat ribbon cable rather than a bundle of wires. Knowing that the speed differential problem occurs in quite a lot of the Frank S loco/tender sets, as several folks have mentioned on here (and indeed LGB themselves acknowledged when they put the speed-equalising circuitry in the analogue Frank S between the loco and tender) I was just wondering if anyone else had found a similar problem with the 2015 family?

Jon.

 

[muns]

The only problem with one decoder is the need to run 8 wires between the loco & tender.
If the motors are OK there shouldn't be any problems with 2 decoders. The speed differential usually means a dying motor anyway.

Sorry Mike, I have misplaced 2 wires.....

2 for track pickup
2 for motor
2 for lights
2 for.....????

 

[mike]

smoke ..mines running with a lgb generic sound decoda built into the tender as well...
loco and tender share pick ups.. each has a mts 2 chip in it

 

[Zerogee]

Chip in tender runs both motors and lights in tender, chip in loco runs lights in loco and smoke otherwise the motors run slightly against each other, so the 4 wire plug between loco and tender two wires for pick up and two wires for motor

If that's the case, then why (aside from the number of connecting wires) bother with 2 decoders? If you're going to run both motors from one chip anyway, why not simply an XL/XLS in the tender running everything? I had assumed that the only good reason for putting 2 separate chips in was that if you run each motor from its own chip you can adjust the motor speeds and characteristics independently, which you can't if they are both paralleled onto one driving chip.

Jon.

 

[Philbahn]

Not exactly the same, But my crockodil had problems with two chips in it. One bogie ran faster than the other reflected by poor pulling power. One three amp chip and the traction improoved , I would therefore advocate one chip.
However I'll leave you to decide which route to go down

 

[Zerogee]

Not exactly the same, But my crockodil had problems with two chips in it. One bogie ran faster than the other reflected by poor pulling power. One three amp chip and the traction improoved , I would therefore advocate one chip.
However I'll leave you to decide which route to go down

Agreed, Phil, that's definitely the way to go on locos where both drivetrains are identical, such as your Croc (and indeed the Mallet that I've just done, where one XL replaced the godawful LGB factory lash-up of a 55020 and a (dud) 55030 booster!).

The reason I asked the question, however, was that the motorised-tender 2015 family, in common with the Frank S, have two slightly DIFFERENT drivetrains - the tender has a simple motorblock with four wheels and no extra drag from con rods or motion, while the loco gearbox has all this extra gubbins on it to push round (or in the case of the Frank S, is also a completely different gearbox design) - which can result in different running characteristics between the two motors. Now I know that it happens in the Frank S, and the various ways to get round it - my question was whether or not anyone had ever noticed the same situation with a 2015?

Jon.

 

[shropshire lad]

I initially fitted two decoders to my 2015 and it was a nightmare with the tender pushing the loco. It now runs using an Xls for both motors very nicely. I subsequently removed the skates from the tender and added some weight which transformed it's pulling power

 

[Zerogee]

I initially fitted two decoders to my 2015 and it was a nightmare with the tender pushing the loco. It now runs using an Xls for both motors very nicely. I subsequently removed the skates from the tender and added some weight which transformed it's pulling power

Thanks Colin! That was exactly the sort of answer I was looking for. Have some stars!

Jon.

 

[itsmcgee]

I have chipped a 2015 with two zimo chips and a tether between them for track pickup. As I tested the two unconnected to check speed difference there was no difference worth mentioning. It makes a great little loco with the two running together.

 

[Zerogee]

I have chipped a 2015 with two zimo chips and a tether between them for track pickup. As I tested the two unconnected to check speed difference there was no difference worth mentioning. It makes a great little loco with the two running together.

Thanks - and welcome to the forum, by the way, most here are slightly mad but, in the words of the Hitch-Hiker's Guide, "mostly harmless"....


Jon.

 

[dutchelm]

The only problem with one decoder is the need to run 8 wires between the loco & tender.
If the motors are OK there shouldn't be any problems with 2 decoders. The speed differential usually means a dying motor anyway.

Sorry Mike, I have misplaced 2 wires.....

2 for track pickup
2 for motor
2 for lights
2 for.....????

2 for track
2 for motor
+ve common
1 for smoke
1 for front light
1 for cab light
My conversion had decoder in tender as it was the best place for the speaker

 

[Cliff George]

Well I'm sure there is no one correct answer to this one.

For what its worth I decided to have an identical decoder in both the tender and the loco. I also fitted a SUSI sound decoder in the tender.

I thought that faffing about with small plugs is a pain sometimes so I wanted no connections. Also I felt that that the extended cab floor (is that what it is called?) that is supplied with this loco would get in the way of the connector wires and any plug I used. I think part of the thinking at the time was that if the tender could run independently of the loco then I could possibly run it with a different loco if I ever wanted too, however I've never done this.

Yes I agree that the mechanisms in both the 2015 tender and loco are identical other than the additional motion on the loco, even so I still found I had to speed match both and have slightly different setups in each decoder. I have two other sets to locos that are identical and are always double headed. Even here the setups have to be slightly different to match speeds as closely as possible, so it didn't surprise me that different setup were required with the 2015 (I think that even with one decoder two supposedly identical blocks will still run slightly differently from each other, but usually not so much different that problems are created or the speed differences are even noticed)

One of the problems with the two decoder solution is that with the relatively short wheel base and smaller number of pickups stalling/stuttering can happen at points or dirty track (although if one of the two does stop the other usually keeps going and pulls the other until it starts running again). I put a power buffer with both decoders, but that makes the solution even more expensive.

The other thing to say is that speed matching is never an exact science. A single decoder speed step may not give the granularity required, also environmental issues such as temperature, train weight (even with back EMF) etc will affect the speed a motor runs at. The direction the motor is running also has an effect. Just get the speeds matched as closely as possible, slight differences have very little effect. When doing speed matching do run the two items separately from each other.

I have a computer program that will tell me the speed a train is running at each speed step. It shuttles a train between two detectors at each speed step. Overrunning at each end allows for the locos to reach its fixed speed before the speed calculation is started.

 

[Tim Brien]

Jon,
the twin motored #201XD series locomotives run basically the same speed each, so I would simply run a single decoder. The six-coupled Frankie is a different kettle of fish as the locomotive has three axles and electical mumbo jumbo to contend with and does run appreciably slower, so would need two decoders. Many run a single decoder Frankie and seem to have no qualms. For me a dual decoder would be esssential in a Frankie installation.

Apparently the Massoth 'L' and 'LS' have different motor control characteristics, so that has me back to the drawing board as I have two Frankies to eventually chip.

 

[Zerogee]

My blue Nicki & Frank S was chipped up by another forum member from whom I bought it, with an XLS in the tender and an XL in the loco - and I was told that considerable fiddling with the speed characteristics of the two decoders was required before the tender speed was brought down to match that of the loco; this is what prompted my question over the 2015 types.
Tim - if you have the facilities for playing around with the chips' programming, then the two-decoder solution with adjusted speed curves seems to be the best for the Frank - but if you simply want plug-and-play, then yes, you're in a bit of a quandary there.

Jon.

 

[Gizzy]

- if you have the facilities for playing around with the chips' programming, then the two-decoder solution with adjusted speed curves seems to be the best for the Frank - but if you simply want plug-and-play, then yes, you're in a bit of a quandary there.

I can tweak the speed curves with my LGB 55045 PC Interface and MTS 6.0 software, but it is a bit of a faff!

I helped Bigjack to match the speeds for a couple of his LGB 'US Shortie' locos last weekend. One of the locos had pickup wheels on the tender and this seemed to make a difference of about a 1/2 a speed step to its running....