C M P's 1:20.3 scale J&S Open Vestibule Coach

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John Solimine

John Solimine

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The scale of the pictured Custom Model Products J&S coach coupled to an Accucraft C-19 appears correct to me. However, when scaled out, the entry doors on the CMP J&S Coach comes out to be only six feet high. Considering that the average height of an American male in eighteen seventy was five foot five, the short six foot opening could be correct for a coach built during this time period. Maybe...

P.S. Thank you Sheffield Rails for the very nice RGS Long Caboose. And thank you for the beautiful packaging that provided safe passage across eight time zones
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John Solimine

John Solimine

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This is really a return to a former thread regarding the various scales of J&S passenger cars. For comparison, I've included this photo of Knott's Berry Farm's C-19 and their J&S Coach
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Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

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As you say, it looks right by comparison - it's difficult to comment otherwise as the coach that we rode in on the WP&YR was a replica rather than an original.
 
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John Solimine

John Solimine

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This is really a return to a former thread regarding the various scales of J&S passenger cars. For comparison, I've included this photo of Knott's Berry Farm's C-19 and their J&S Coach
As you say, it looks right by comparison - it's difficult to comment otherwise as the coach that we rode in on the WP&YR was a replica rather than an original.
It's like looking at a dead animal on the side of the road, hoping that it isn't a dog. Like passing the roadside animal, I'm compelled to know if it's scaled correctly. All the while knowing that I might not like the possible answer. The solution is to get a copy of the original Jackson & Sharp builder's drawings. Then if the numbers don't comport, I could always tell myself that, "it's a special order coach."

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How far can you go with scaling? Even at this large scale, the oversized hand rails and grabs are oversized by structural necessity
 
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

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How far can you go with scaling? Even at this large scale, the oversized hand rails and grabs are oversized by structural necessity
It's all in the mind - well, or in the eye of the beholder. There was a glorious maxim in the building trade that if it looks right, it is right - so, to a certain extent it doesn't really matter that much, unless we really want to worry about it. In general terms with our models, I think it's the overall impression of relative size that is, ultimately, the most important; and then again, the 10 foot rule comes into play - that most of our garden railroads are viewed from about a 10 ft distance for an average person i.e. anybody between five foot five and six foot tall :p:p

I've been looking for a picture of my 1:20.3 coach and combine together. The combine was built largely by upscaling some of the dimensions from a Bachmann 1:22.5 JS coach and only later did I buy the Accucraft coach. The combine could be a shade too tall - ironically it was that verandah door that drove the height :rolleyes::rolleyes:

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Riograndad

Riograndad

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It's all in the mind - well, or in the eye of the beholder. There was a glorious maxim in the building trade that if it looks right, it is right - so, to a certain extent it doesn't really matter that much, unless we really want to worry about it. In general terms with our models, I think it's the overall impression of relative size that is, ultimately, the most important; and then again, the 10 foot rule comes into play - that most of our garden railroads are viewed from about a 10 ft distance for an average person i.e. anybody between five foot five and six foot tall :p:p

I've been looking for a picture of my 1:20.3 coach and combine together. The combine was built largely by upscaling some of the dimensions from a Bachmann 1:22.5 JS coach and only later did I buy the Accucraft coach. The combine could be a shade too tall - ironically it was that verandah door that drove the height :rolleyes::rolleyes:

View attachment 257596
Totally agree with Rhino,if it looks fine and you are happy with the cars/locos running together then let it run,in my case I run 1:29 Sierra passenger cars with modified balconies to bring them up to more or less(to look like) the same scale as Bachmann and LGB cars,yes the doors are slightly smaller but really not noticeable,or an old Hartland 1;24 long caboose with 1;22 freight cars and again can`t really tell the difference;);):rock: ,posting a pic of a Sierra car but can`t find one with the other makes of car all together for size comparison:swear:
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Fred2179G

Fred2179G

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It is well known that, besides being 1:22.5, the Bachmann coaches are compressed, so they are difficult to upscale.

CMP coaches were supposed to be 1:20.3, as are the various Carter Bros coaches made from MLS Masterclass kits. The prototypes were shorter than the later J&S coaches. ( 36 ft instead of 41ft, if my memory serves. I still have one of the former but all my Accu J&S coaches are gone to new homes.)

And yes, the doors are small on 3 ft equipment. If you search for a few pictures, you'll find that we have to duck to enter an EBT coach.
 
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

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It is well known that, besides being 1:22.5, the Bachmann coaches are compressed, so they are difficult to upscale.

CMP coaches were supposed to be 1:20.3, as are the various Carter Bros coaches made from MLS Masterclass kits. The prototypes were shorter than the later J&S coaches. ( 36 ft instead of 41ft, if my memory serves. I still have one of the former but all my Accu J&S coaches are gone to new homes.)

And yes, the doors are small on 3 ft equipment. If you search for a few pictures, you'll find that we have to duck to enter an EBT coach.
Yeah, I didn't take the length from the Bachmann coach, only the height and width to get me roughly into the right territory.

As for length, at that time I had a bit of clearance issue on the approach to my bridge (where the railroad ran in the old house) so I limited the length to suit that, and for the combine to hopefully look close to a Carter Bros vehicle. Bearing in mind that Carter Bros had the reputation for building nearly an entire railroad on site, including the rolling stock, I reckoned that some railroad somewhere would have had a pretty short combine ;);)
 
tac foley

tac foley

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Well. I'm just 5ft 11in, but I had to duck passing through the vestibule doors on this Sumpter Valley RR cars...and they are full-size cars.

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John Solimine

John Solimine

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Thanks for the pictures and stories. It lead me to research the Carter Bros. RR Car Co. Turns out they were local to where I grew up in Northern California. I was surprised to find out that the San Francisco Cable Cars were manufactured by the Carter Bros. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Brothers

Riograndad; I like your modified coach. BTW, one of the names in my family tree is Isham. I intend to go to the town of Isham the next time I'm in England and see if the people there are as goofy looking as me. It's all in the name of research, doncha know.
 
tac foley

tac foley

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Isham isn't a town by any exaggeration, it's a small village of about 700 inhabitants. To tell the truth, they look much like anybody around here, you really couldn't look at an Ishamer at tell instantly that that is where they are from. No webbed hands or feet or single eye.

You may well be disappointed looking for goofy-lookalikes.
 
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Fred Mills

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Don't ask what I look like; Terry usually looks at me with a mystical looking sideways glance, even though I'm originally from Montreal, with an English name. My ears, seem to be attached properly, and I have a nose, and 1 1/2 working eyes....I assure you, I don't breathe fire, only garlic breath, at times just to cover up the boozy hot air. It appears that I'm registered as a "Canadien" !!!!:cool:
 
tac foley

tac foley

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Désolée...............................................