BP installation - where do what exactly to eliminate track power feed?

[rentren]

Hello on a hot BC-Kootenays day and somewhat smoke shrouded (not of steam engines, it's the forest burning across them thar mountains).
This harks back to a much older thread and a recent reference to it wrt BP/RC (DCC).

So, theory.
Remove contact behind drive wheels (coal), possibly cut power from other wired axles, and cut power from contact shoe, then bring battery leads into the positions where track power leads were. So much my attempt to conceptualize.

I'm looking at an oldie (pre-1989, made in W. Germany) Harz and/or DR 996001, i.e. LGB 2080, no sound. LGB called the 2080S a "Super-Dampflok". All but the first of my BP/RC conversions were carried out by WGRR (John at Winona Garden Rail Road). Very helpful, interesting solutions (lighting of my RhB crocodile), yet in a way I think I ought be doing it myself (particularly be cause he is loaded with requests).

The 4 pages of SERVICE sheets look impressive and leave me hesitant. So far I have not opened up the loco, invoking WGRR services seems once more the easiest way out. Perhaps the discussant in the older thread feels like doing a walk-thru for the faint of heart?

Thanks for any detailing, in particular of course with the LGB 2080 steam engine. -- Rr

 

[dunnyrail]

Ok how to start, well first principle what are you using for RC, I think it is Crest? Below shows the Crest DCC chip, the first pic shows the terminals that interest for a start just to get a loco running. Motor is obvious, input is power from battery via a fuse and on/off plus charging socket for batteries. For this the on/off is to make toe loco live on but the clever part is that the batteries can be charged when the switch is at off using a Single Pole Changeover switch. You can buy these with a centre off but not necessary. The second pic shows how the units look when put together after of course they are wired up. Note where positive wire goes.

The loco may if it is a newer one have 4 wires on a plug. 2 are from pickups, the other 2 are the motor. The pickups can be ignored at the loco end but you do need the motor connections intact. Use a meter to work out what is what. Touching wheels then the wires will tell you what is what. Checking out the motor wires disconnected from any internal circuit board should give a reading of resistance as the motor will give this. That should get you started.

Older 3 pin locomotives need pulling apart to convert to 4 wire, there are threads about how to do this.

The set up of the TX to link the RX is a bit intense, sorry but reading the manual and followingbit is the only option there are no short cuts!

 

[rentren]

Older 3 pin locomotives need pulling apart to convert to 4 wire, there are threads about how to do this.

The set up of the TX to link the RX is a bit intense, sorry but reading the manual and followingbit is the only option there are no short cuts!

Thanks for the caution 'a bit intense', makes me grin. My likely RT(f)M look =8-\ , I better undertake this with a knowledgeable helper, however, no such living nearby.
So, with four converted locos (RevoEng TX, DC version + battery power) I have a nice enough fleet, tho' among them only one steamer, LGB 2070D, green (similar to the Waldenburgerli, former 750mm line outside of Basel).
The LGB 2080 looks a daunting conversion to me, and so I inch closer to the option of GScaleGraphics TrackSide 7 R/C to control at least one non-converted track-power fed steam model, be it the LGB 2080 or the 2070D with optional coal car to increase pulling strength on my 30‰ ramps.
R/C is almost inevitable for my set-up because I cannot view all of my layout from one single vantage point.
Also, the DCC route looked/looks tempting because turnout switching and more could be carried out from that mobile hand held as well, I presume, not tho' with a TrackSide 7 installation.
Clearly, DCC holds challenges (e.g. wiring and its quality), at this time not yet taking the leap. BP/RC with RevoEng serves well and I likely take to the TrackSide 7 option.
For general info on my outdoor layout (there's an indoor part and I'd like to connect the two thru a window) see illustrations. Plan top left, the beginnings under the terrace, bottom right addition where formerly fire wood was piled, centre section with lines in front of SW house wall. Most track is somewhat sheltered.

 

[dunnyrail]

rentren when I say intense I mean you need to go 1 step at a time, best to read manual write down info you need to write in then use that info. It will all exist for your existing locs so you can go menu look and record what you already have. If you are concerned, just hit menu and you back out to start again. There are 3 things that must be unique (highlighted red on my crib sheet below) so find them on your existing locs, record them and decide what your new is. The others are what you want though the highlighted x in red is what defines each loco as you scroll through the selection with the top double <<>> to change operated loco, you should understand that already, many of my guests hit those buttons then wonder why their loco wont work. They inadvertently hit them instead of the single blocked triangle on central l/r speed up/down stop 5 buttons.

 

[rentren]

rentren when I say intense I mean you need to go 1 step at a time, best to read manual write down info you need to write in then use that info. It will all exist for your existing locs so you can go menu look and record what you already have. If you are concerned, just hit menu and you back out to start again. There are 3 things that must be unique (highlighted red on my crib sheet below) so find them on your existing locs, record them and decide what your new is. The others are what you want though the highlighted x in red is what defines each loco as you scroll through the selection with the top double <<>> to change operated loco, you should understand that already, many of my guests hit those buttons then wonder why their loco wont work. They inadvertently hit them instead of the single blocked triangle on central l/r speed up/down stop 5 buttons.
View attachment 330636

Organized you are, Dunnyrail, and thanks for further pointers!
My first concern has to be track connectivity. As I have those BP/RC engines track power is a lesser issue (car lights e.g.) and this independence from a good track feed shows up every time I use a track powered engine. There remain three spots engines take haltingly or get stuck. I keep adjusting but problem resurfaces. Next measure is a test with more power feeding spots.
The major task for DCC at this time (no locos available just yet) is turn-out switching. It seems so much easier to use (dependable) track and turn-out decoders than a huge wiring task for a control panel.
I take liberties and offer a look into a panel a friend of mine in the old world maintains/enlarges for literally decades (includes swapping out older items for newer). Looks just daunting to me.

Another piece of trickery will be the turn loop. One is simple enough, the other is embedded in the top part, the original layout. Here is a full run of a 'schwerer Engadiner' (a heavy RhB run to the Engadine, they can consist of 56 axles!) with double header from lower loop thru middle station to upper loop, BP/RC controlled thru my Burlap Mountains …incl. a derail/rerail at the very end :-/

 

[rentren]

'course! Lotsa work left but run they must

 

[dunnyrail]

So as I see it you are going to use battery and track dcc? For me I ditched track power in the garden, I have never used electric points in the garden using pneumatic control going back to 2000, before tyat I was handrolic for point control.

As for wiring, well this is a tricky subject. Many want a central point of control which means long wire runs and as you have shown us in the pic of your pals panel jury rigging as extra gets added. Some build their panels like this to start! To be honest I always prefer local control close to a station or yard. Then you just need main power feeds to each panel and less local control. Of course you pays your money and takes your choice. But whatever you do, pre planning colour coding and recording what you have done or going to do is key.

What you see in the first 2 pictures are the layout sections and in colour the actual panel print for the layout showing sections finally the spread sheet detailing all the connections that was used to note when connected and of course used to test it all out. The layout had Cab Control thus a controller at each location could run the complete layout but control of power from each location. Point were not electrified but could easily have been. Note the definitions of colour that assist in using limited colours for multiple uses. I used this on another layout that did have power operated points.

 

[rentren]

So as I see it you are going to use battery and track dcc?

I have some oldie MTS equipment and was taken by the idea for turn-out switching current being carried in the track with decoders (four 55025 available). However, not so sure anymore. Haven't managed to track down a short shown by LGB 55005 but not detected when using a plain transformer/regulator (puzzling to no end to me). Also, the control with LGB's Universal Remote seems not entirely trivial. Switch control boxes look to me the simplest means to deploy. That's what I had on my H0 layouts decades ago, that's what I understand. I'm not as old as this one but I currently match the locos' number.

For me I ditched track power in the garden, I have never used electric points in the garden using pneumatic control going back to 2000, before tyat I was handrolic for point control.

As for wiring, well this is a tricky subject. Many want a central point of control which means long wire runs and as you have shown us in the pic of your pals panel jury rigging as extra gets added. Some build their panels like this to start! To be honest I always prefer local control close to a station or yard.

That's the way I want to do it, local control at the two station areas, one such for the stacked stations near the entrance (see plan), one for layout parts below deck and very much the station of obligatory stops in the 'big city' (eventually a photo backdrop). Currently things are, to use your term, handrolic.

[…] But whatever you do, pre planning colour coding and recording what you have done or going to do is key.

...half a step up from handrolic are my otr oldies at hand, the LGB 5175 Switch Control Box. Hence recording is going to be very transparent in that electric turn-outs carry a numeral (rule nr. 8 corresponding with the one of a control box switch (and wires labelled).
Several switches will remain manual ones as there are routes where cutting open and snapping back is just the thing wanted.

Not sure whether I ever graduate to a yard control panel as you have it or the friend mentioned.
Not that I'd dislike it …

Also, I do not plan to have automatisms with the exception of the lower turn loop feeding into an electric switch usual set 'straight' except when a train is to enter the dead end tracks as e.g. the push-pull unit. Not clear yet how to achieve that other than pressing the LGB Control Box momentary.

 

[dunnyrail]

I have some oldie MTS equipment and was taken by the idea for turn-out switching current being carried in the track with decoders (four 55025 available). However, not so sure anymore. Haven't managed to track down a short shown by LGB 55005 but not detected when using a plain transformer/regulator (puzzling to no end to me). Also, the control with LGB's Universal Remote seems not entirely trivial. Switch control boxes look to me the simplest means to deploy. That's what I had on my H0 layouts decades ago, that's what I understand. I'm not as old as this one but I currently match the locos' number.

Yes we found the set up of 55025 and linking routes etc required much setting up and memory. 8 imagine laminated switch cards showing simplified routes and numbers to call may have worked but we quickly went over to pneumatic air working having one lever to each point or pair for x overs and signals. Not sure I like the idea of using track to route power to decoders but it is pretty standard with DCC setups so should work just fine.

Wondering if your puzzling short is a faulty pair of wires to just one point may be the issue. Only way to check this would be to dewire each point pair one by one till fault found, if that be the issue. Put em back after perhaps temp wiring into terminal strips to get back correct. You may have more than one dodgy pair!

Oh a further thought, dewire each of the 55025’s as a first to see if that isolates the fault to one of the 55025.

That's the way I want to do it, local control at the two station areas, one such for the stacked stations near the entrance (see plan), one for layout parts below deck and very much the station of obligatory stops in the 'big city' (eventually a photo backdrop). Currently things are, to use your term, handrolic.

...half a step up from handrolic are my otr oldies at hand, the LGB 5175 Switch Control Box. Hence recording is going to be very transparent in that electric turn-outs carry a numeral (rule nr. 8 corresponding with the one of a control box switch (and wires labelled).
Several switches will remain manual ones as there are routes where cutting open and snapping back is just the thing wanted.

Not sure whether I ever graduate to a yard control panel as you have it or the friend mentioned.
Not that I'd dislike it …
View attachment 330702
Also, I do not plan to have automatisms with the exception of the lower turn loop feeding into an electric switch usual set 'straight' except when a train is to enter the dead end tracks as e.g. the push-pull unit. Not clear yet how to achieve that other than pressing the LGB Control Box momentary.

 

[rentren]

Yes we found the set up of 55025 and linking routes etc required much setting up and memory. […]

Thanks dunnyrail for the discussion, the evaluations. My very early LGB-MTS is no longer a consideration.
I had also discussions with the friend whose control panels I took the liberty to show and explain my hesitation for doing such. - Well will have to and now that I changed location for my track-power control to the one vantage point from which I can view the entire outdoors layout, I feel more motivated to tackle the panel-making and view the old LGB momentary and on/off switch boxes as a temporary measure to be replaced ASAP.
With 5 locos converted to BP/RC one feels much like the track is the track, power comes from elsewhere. However, I have 4 locos remaining track-power dependent and turn-out switching a.o. assigned to the old LGB 5075 etc. That's where my attention gets turned to now. The weather is a help.
Unexpectedly and somewhat warily watched, ...300 forest fires burning in BC, the closest ones 50km away, smoke for days and days. With heat pump and indoor air cleaner we stay comfortable and are outdoors merely early on (my wife's garden) or when the air has improved a bit with wind. Day time temps in the 30C, night time around 20C range at many a place in Western Canadas.
With your sample of a control panel (and some switches to receive electric motors) there's inside work for me. Thanks again!

 

[dunnyrail]

Hope fire stays well away from your location rentren .

 

[rentren]

Hope fire stays well away from your location rentren .

50km over the Goat Range into the Slocan Lake valley (while I'm in the Kootenay Lake valley).

A slope on the east bank of Slocan lake is ablaze between Silverton and a view point (nice promontory, great views, normally …), Hwy 6 on the terrace abov the lake is closed.