Any cheaper catenary?
- Thread starter Mobi
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Madman
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I cannot answer that question for a commercially available system, but it's not difficult to make your own. Depending on your roadbed, hard or soft, you can find all sorts of material to use for the support poles and arms. The catenary contact wire can be simple copper wire, braided is better. Here are some examples of my own homebuilt catenary system, back when I had one in the garden.
The second clip shows a time when I had LGB masts
https://youtu.be/w6mzLBrCDCE
https://youtu.be/7CtOfMMxyv4
The second clip shows a time when I had LGB masts
https://youtu.be/w6mzLBrCDCE
https://youtu.be/7CtOfMMxyv4
James Day
Guano Corner Rly - Runs weekly - Guano permitting
Dan,
It would be interesting to see how you attached your wires to the LGB masts/hoops or the wooden poles on your mk1 system.
They certainly both looked sturdy and robust.
I bought a load of the Mk1 LGB system in the late 80s and early 90s. This has the non-adjustable bases and the stainless steel fixed length wires with U loops as joiners. I bought loads of this just as Beatties were getting rid of it at stupid prices.
The original stainless steel catenary wire is very strong, but by matching the sectional rails available, the lengths can be restrictive on your geometry and some special masts, with cut back bases were always required for points etc. I either used flat metal plates under the track to support these cut masts, or stakes driven into the ground.
I bought loads of spare arms too, and when I needed a few more masts, I was able to get the Mk2 versions and swap the arms over. I have never bought any of the modern masts with adjustable bases.
It has been very well used on temporary layouts ever since, but for the past three years most and now all of it, has been in my garden. Apart from me breaking a mast by being clumsy (easily fixed with Super glue) it has fared well and proved cat and fox proof.
I have never seen any of this stuff second-hand in shops, but looking on e-bay I see it can be picked up from e-bay Germany and also US for less than £7 per mast, which is roughly half what the modern ones cost. (I have previously bought loads of other other items from Holland and Germany and found it cost effective, without any nasty customs charges!). I can heartily recommend it.
If I was starting out with LGB now, I also could not afford to put up wires if I had to buy everything new at full price, but I could just about scrape together enough to afford these!
James
It would be interesting to see how you attached your wires to the LGB masts/hoops or the wooden poles on your mk1 system.
They certainly both looked sturdy and robust.
I bought a load of the Mk1 LGB system in the late 80s and early 90s. This has the non-adjustable bases and the stainless steel fixed length wires with U loops as joiners. I bought loads of this just as Beatties were getting rid of it at stupid prices.
The original stainless steel catenary wire is very strong, but by matching the sectional rails available, the lengths can be restrictive on your geometry and some special masts, with cut back bases were always required for points etc. I either used flat metal plates under the track to support these cut masts, or stakes driven into the ground.
I bought loads of spare arms too, and when I needed a few more masts, I was able to get the Mk2 versions and swap the arms over. I have never bought any of the modern masts with adjustable bases.
It has been very well used on temporary layouts ever since, but for the past three years most and now all of it, has been in my garden. Apart from me breaking a mast by being clumsy (easily fixed with Super glue) it has fared well and proved cat and fox proof.
I have never seen any of this stuff second-hand in shops, but looking on e-bay I see it can be picked up from e-bay Germany and also US for less than £7 per mast, which is roughly half what the modern ones cost. (I have previously bought loads of other other items from Holland and Germany and found it cost effective, without any nasty customs charges!). I can heartily recommend it.
If I was starting out with LGB now, I also could not afford to put up wires if I had to buy everything new at full price, but I could just about scrape together enough to afford these!
James
stevelewis
Registered
Back in the 80s I made my own, quite simple to do, used approx 8mm brass tube cut to size as required for its location, used stiff copper or brass rod about 3mm diameter i think for the cross pieces etc and N or Z gauge rail extracted from flexible track for the contact wires.I made each post in situ in the garden on a dry day as i used a high wattage soldering iron on an extension with a RCD in the circuit, eack post being concreted in position in an approx 6" cube concrete block ( below ground level) It worked well for quite a few years, there were times when repairs had to be carried out due to animals crossing the tracks etc!
3 Pics attached photos of photos!!!! showing the catenary just about, also 1 for good measure showing a completely different small rockery line (Tramway) I built using LGB catenary
Attachments
James Day
Guano Corner Rly - Runs weekly - Guano permitting
Steve,
You mention the repairs: Presumably everything was soft soldered?
The thing that amazes me the most about Catenary are the forces it withstands from tensions in the contact wire to stresses imposes by passing pantographs.
I first noticed this in the 1970/80s running locos under my Tri-ang catenary. It was back then I also discovered how badly soft soldering copes with stress and vibration.
The other thing that astounds me is the sheer quantity of equipment that is needed to create a line. My two branches total just over 100' of running line, but use just under 100 masts in all. My maximum mast spacing is 2', which the strong LGB contact wire copes with well, but extra masts are soaked up at junctions and in the stations.
Even at the best second-hand prices I would need more than £700 (allowing for postage) to create that today, before I put up any contact wire!
You mention the repairs: Presumably everything was soft soldered?
The thing that amazes me the most about Catenary are the forces it withstands from tensions in the contact wire to stresses imposes by passing pantographs.
I first noticed this in the 1970/80s running locos under my Tri-ang catenary. It was back then I also discovered how badly soft soldering copes with stress and vibration.
The other thing that astounds me is the sheer quantity of equipment that is needed to create a line. My two branches total just over 100' of running line, but use just under 100 masts in all. My maximum mast spacing is 2', which the strong LGB contact wire copes with well, but extra masts are soaked up at junctions and in the stations.
Even at the best second-hand prices I would need more than £700 (allowing for postage) to create that today, before I put up any contact wire!
stevelewis
Registered
Hi James
Yes soft soldered, there were not actually many repairs over the 12 year period that that particular line was in use, I must admit that would have no intention of using catenary outdoor these days,
I have encountered quite a few garden railways in the almost 40 years i have been involved with this sector of the hobby, not too many of them actually went the catenary route ( although most had OHE locos!) But the thing I noticed that most catenary users eventually removed it and leave it to the imagination!
Yes soft soldered, there were not actually many repairs over the 12 year period that that particular line was in use, I must admit that would have no intention of using catenary outdoor these days,
I have encountered quite a few garden railways in the almost 40 years i have been involved with this sector of the hobby, not too many of them actually went the catenary route ( although most had OHE locos!) But the thing I noticed that most catenary users eventually removed it and leave it to the imagination!
James Day
Guano Corner Rly - Runs weekly - Guano permitting
Steve,
Some good points indeed: You are 100% right - when I was a teenager I could not wait to power up my Tri-ang catenary, but on my later layouts it was working, in that the pantographs were up and making contact, but it was not actually powered.
On the LGB I originally used the Catenary as part of some twin train circuits where trains drew power in different ways and passed each other in opposite directions. I also had a twin tram shuttle with one powered by catenary the other from the track. These were all temporary layouts though.
In my garden now, the LGB catenary is again working in that if the stock has pantographs, they are raised, but powered only via the track. The reason this time as that as my branches are fully automated, I wanted to keep the track and module wiring simple. I do miss 'the sparks effect' though.
I too have been in the hobby a while, since late 1976, but my current permanent garden railway is a mere three years old. I did have a couple before, including one on a balcony but they were catenary free! We will see how long it lasts for me!
James
Some good points indeed: You are 100% right - when I was a teenager I could not wait to power up my Tri-ang catenary, but on my later layouts it was working, in that the pantographs were up and making contact, but it was not actually powered.
On the LGB I originally used the Catenary as part of some twin train circuits where trains drew power in different ways and passed each other in opposite directions. I also had a twin tram shuttle with one powered by catenary the other from the track. These were all temporary layouts though.
In my garden now, the LGB catenary is again working in that if the stock has pantographs, they are raised, but powered only via the track. The reason this time as that as my branches are fully automated, I wanted to keep the track and module wiring simple. I do miss 'the sparks effect' though.
I too have been in the hobby a while, since late 1976, but my current permanent garden railway is a mere three years old. I did have a couple before, including one on a balcony but they were catenary free! We will see how long it lasts for me!
James
Madman
Registered
James, here are a few more photos of my catenary system. I tried different methods during the time I was running under wire. One of the simplest and least expensive systems I tried, and probably most like the prototype, was simply to stretch braided copper wire between two posts, usually 1/2" copper tubing driven into the earth. I kept tension on the wire with turnbuckles. It gets a bit tricky on curves, but using a loco as a guide, I was able to get the wires positioned correctly.
The last photo shows a homemade system I built on an R1 curve. The masts are galvanized 1/2" conduit. I always tried using whatever was on hand. The system with the LGB Standard masts came to be simply due to a good price for them at the time.
The last photo shows a homemade system I built on an R1 curve. The masts are galvanized 1/2" conduit. I always tried using whatever was on hand. The system with the LGB Standard masts came to be simply due to a good price for them at the time.
Attachments
James Day
Guano Corner Rly - Runs weekly - Guano permitting
Dan,
That is quite an amazing array of masts and side pulls etc. Was that a headspan I saw too?
Nicely done.
By using a material that could be soldered you allowed all sorts joints to be incorporated, giving a wonderful effect. The stainless steel wire will not allow any of that, as it is impossible to bend to any great extent, such as creating a new jointing loop, let alone solder!
I do my junctions by binding the contact wire hoop ends together with a fine rigid wire, which works, but lacks elegance!
It would be interesting to know how deep you drove your columns into the ground, although with a more maluable contact wire I guess the tensions were more contained.
James
That is quite an amazing array of masts and side pulls etc. Was that a headspan I saw too?
Nicely done.
By using a material that could be soldered you allowed all sorts joints to be incorporated, giving a wonderful effect. The stainless steel wire will not allow any of that, as it is impossible to bend to any great extent, such as creating a new jointing loop, let alone solder!
I do my junctions by binding the contact wire hoop ends together with a fine rigid wire, which works, but lacks elegance!
It would be interesting to know how deep you drove your columns into the ground, although with a more maluable contact wire I guess the tensions were more contained.
James
Madman
Registered
James,
My masts or columns were driven into the earth about 12" which left the same amount above the ground. As I mentioned, I found stranded copper wire the easiest to use. Being in construction, I was able to get spools of leftover wire from the electricians. Since the wire was insulated, I had to remove the insulation before I could use it to build a catenary system. The simplest way I found to accomplish the task was to tie one end of the wire to a fixed point, like the garage door in my case. I then stretched the wire out in the driveway and while holding tension on it, ran a utility knife along the wire with the blade almost flat against the wire. This removed a little less than half the insulation. It was just a matter of pulling the remaining insulation off by hand. Before I untied the wire from the garage door handle, I inserted the far end into an electric drill. I turned the drill on thus tightening the twist in the strands. As you may know, stranded copper wire has only a very slight twist to the strands and it would fray if not tightened. This makes the wire a bit stiffer, which is a good thing. I which I had more pictures to show you. If I can be of further assistance please post again.
What is a headspan?
My masts or columns were driven into the earth about 12" which left the same amount above the ground. As I mentioned, I found stranded copper wire the easiest to use. Being in construction, I was able to get spools of leftover wire from the electricians. Since the wire was insulated, I had to remove the insulation before I could use it to build a catenary system. The simplest way I found to accomplish the task was to tie one end of the wire to a fixed point, like the garage door in my case. I then stretched the wire out in the driveway and while holding tension on it, ran a utility knife along the wire with the blade almost flat against the wire. This removed a little less than half the insulation. It was just a matter of pulling the remaining insulation off by hand. Before I untied the wire from the garage door handle, I inserted the far end into an electric drill. I turned the drill on thus tightening the twist in the strands. As you may know, stranded copper wire has only a very slight twist to the strands and it would fray if not tightened. This makes the wire a bit stiffer, which is a good thing. I which I had more pictures to show you. If I can be of further assistance please post again.
What is a headspan?
ntpntpntp
Registered
Headspan is where catenary for multiple tracks is supported by additional cross - wires strung between masts either side, instead of using metal gantries between the masts.
It`s what I have on my N gauge layout over the station area.
I must say it`s very pleasing that the photos in previous posts DON`T seem to have curved wires, they have properly tensioned straight wires. It`s something that always grates on me where people use prefabricated lengths of catenary and simply bend them round curves.
It`s what I have on my N gauge layout over the station area.
I must say it`s very pleasing that the photos in previous posts DON`T seem to have curved wires, they have properly tensioned straight wires. It`s something that always grates on me where people use prefabricated lengths of catenary and simply bend them round curves.
Madman
Registered
Thank you for the explanation of a "Headspan". And yes, I dislike curved contact wire myself. Not that I would critisize anyone using it. We do what we can. If it looks good to the owner, great! I must say that I miss my catenary. I like Electric locomotives. When I had my High-Rail Lionel layout many years ago, I ran GG1s, E33s and EP5s under live catenary.
trammayo
Interested in vintage commercial vehicle, trams, t
ntpntpntp said:Headspan is where catenary for multiple tracks is supported by additional cross - wires strung between masts either side, instead of using metal gantries between the masts.
It's what I have on my N gauge layout over the station area.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
I must say it's very pleasing that the photos in previous posts DON'T seem to have curved wires, they have properly tensioned straight wires. It's something that always grates on me where people use prefabricated lengths of catenary and simply bend them round curves.
Another name for that headspan would be transcatenary - i.e. transverse.
James Day
Guano Corner Rly - Runs weekly - Guano permitting
Guys,
I feel that I have let the side down. My Mk1 LGB with the sturdy stainless steel contact wire curves at every bend and junction, but to compensate I do zig-zag the wires along the straights!
All my experience with overhead power supply has been with toy sysytems, starting Marklin and the very similar Tri-ang Mk1 type, both with the stamped out metal contact and suspender wires, and moving on to the simpler Tri-ang mk2 version and its reappearance as Hornby with different masts many years later.
Most of course are not really Catenary at all, but just an overhead contact wire, as you would find on a simple tramway. Tri-ang Mk1 and Marklin represented the actual Catenary wire, which is the curved wire, that the dropper wires hang from suspending the contact wire. I think the dictionary says Catenary "is the curve described by a cable strung between two poles".
True Catenary is available in some systems like the posher LGB 'model' version and that lovely N gauge layout that was illustrated in this post. I would love to have something like that, but I know my modelling limitations, the depth of my pockets and am aware of the rather healthly looking fox that likes to visit my branch line. LGB Mk1 can withstand foxes, hedgehogs and cats and hopefully we won't get any visiting badgers!
James
I feel that I have let the side down. My Mk1 LGB with the sturdy stainless steel contact wire curves at every bend and junction, but to compensate I do zig-zag the wires along the straights!
All my experience with overhead power supply has been with toy sysytems, starting Marklin and the very similar Tri-ang Mk1 type, both with the stamped out metal contact and suspender wires, and moving on to the simpler Tri-ang mk2 version and its reappearance as Hornby with different masts many years later.
Most of course are not really Catenary at all, but just an overhead contact wire, as you would find on a simple tramway. Tri-ang Mk1 and Marklin represented the actual Catenary wire, which is the curved wire, that the dropper wires hang from suspending the contact wire. I think the dictionary says Catenary "is the curve described by a cable strung between two poles".
True Catenary is available in some systems like the posher LGB 'model' version and that lovely N gauge layout that was illustrated in this post. I would love to have something like that, but I know my modelling limitations, the depth of my pockets and am aware of the rather healthly looking fox that likes to visit my branch line. LGB Mk1 can withstand foxes, hedgehogs and cats and hopefully we won't get any visiting badgers!
James
I was going to ask about animal damage..
I would think (working) overhead power, outside, is pretty labour intensive?? - I guess you may not need to clean the overhead if you run regularly, but would think it needs a lot of TLC to keep it operational?
I will have to start another thread, to ask about animal damage to outside layouts.. - I had thought loose ballast, but cats might use it, and pigeons eat it??
I would think (working) overhead power, outside, is pretty labour intensive?? - I guess you may not need to clean the overhead if you run regularly, but would think it needs a lot of TLC to keep it operational?
I will have to start another thread, to ask about animal damage to outside layouts.. - I had thought loose ballast, but cats might use it, and pigeons eat it??
Madman
Registered
In my case, it wasn't so much the animals that were doing damage to the catenary, but when grandchildren arrived it was difficult for them to avoid getting their feet snagged on it. And the head gardener would file a complaint when she had to work in "Her" garden. That said, it seems that the last few years we've had an abundance of deer around. They would certainly have made my maintainance chores a longer list if they had been around while the catenary was still in operation.
stevelewis
Registered
Actually i found that catenary was far less labour intensive than the actual track, in the 12 years one of my lines existed, I did not really have any issues with the overhead which made me want to remove it, although I dont think i would consider it these days due to the extra expense and time involved in setting it up.As a matter of interest I attach a couple of Pics showing my very first Crocodile £169 Brand new ( no big discounts in those days) this was one of the earliest 2040 ones which had a completely different internal switching system which allowed the motors to be track powered and the lighting to be Catenary powered which meant that coaches could also be illiminated via the loco lighting sockets and that lights would remain on when loco was stationery. The switch panel in the loco had a series of small red & green indicator lights so that it was possible to tell which switch was set to what function.
It was poss. to reverse the function to catenary powered motors & track powered lights!!
Remember this was in the early 80s before the Dawn of the Digital
