That is something I had in my mind with my recent free-floating tracklaying - decided to clamp all joints to be on the safe side, both electrically and mechanically. Seems to have worked so far!
Jon.
Thanks Jon..
Advice on Whether or not to fix track down before ballasting
- Thread starter Clive Tucker
- Start date
Thanks Jon..
LGB-Sid
Registered
My track is Free-floating track in ballast , after two years running trains on it the track is well bedded in the ballast and during the recent heatwave here not had any problems with the track moving to suit the temps. some joints clamped and bends do have the standard central LGB plastic joiner buried in the ballast holding two sections together too stop the joints opening too much.
How is your track joined? - Push-joiners, or clamps??
LGB-Sid
Registered
Most the standard push joiners , in general only clamped where I needed to cut standard sections and on some points so I can remove them easier if need be
Fred Mills
Registered
There is one factor that has not been mentioned, and applies to just about every concern in the enjoyment of OUTDOOR MODEL RAILROADING....WHERE IN THE WORLD the individual railroad is located. Climate, weather, soil conditions, and type of track (Track= rail +ties) can offer far different challenges in different places.
The climate where Greg (California) is located and the type of track plan, and its use, is far different than where I live (Ontario Canada).
Over 20 years, I have been nailing the track to wooden 2x lumber, with great success, finding the floating method more work than pleasure. But then, our railway is used far differently than Greg uses his. We both swear by our success' , and rightly so.
To suggest that only one method is best, is a grave mistake.
Fr.Fred
The climate where Greg (California) is located and the type of track plan, and its use, is far different than where I live (Ontario Canada).
Over 20 years, I have been nailing the track to wooden 2x lumber, with great success, finding the floating method more work than pleasure. But then, our railway is used far differently than Greg uses his. We both swear by our success' , and rightly so.
To suggest that only one method is best, is a grave mistake.
Fr.Fred
beavercreek
Travel, Art, Theatre, Music, Photography, Trains
When I first built the initial stages of the layout (all at ground level) I had a mix of horizontal wooden battens at about 16" (40cm) between log roll edges where it was appropriate to use the log roll in the garden design. Then that was filled in with aggregate of different shades (depending on the area of the garden).
The aggregates were 2mm-5mm (I tend to use only 2mm now).
Although all of the wood was pressure treated, some, the log roll in particular, was to last for not a great deal of time.
TREATED SPIKES
For the rest of the layout, where log roll was out of place in the garden design, I used pressure treated timber spikes at about 18" (45cm) driven into the ground so that the tops of them were at just below 'ballast level' and the track was screwed to these.
After about 6 years, the log roll and then the battens began to rot away so spikes were used again to replace the fixing points.
For the spikes to last a very long time they were not only pressure treated but I soaked them all in Cuprinol 5 star (other brands are available).
The first ones have now lasted for 12 years.
WHEN RUNNING TRACK ON TOP OF ROCKS
When I added a raised section which used rock to give the increase in height I drove and glued smaller diameter wooden spikes between the rocks to screw the track to at a few places (just to keep any flexi-track at the correct curve radius etc).
GROUND MOVEMENT
I have not had any real troubles with expansion but have had the inevitable ground movement (heave or sinking) with the different seasons. This I compensated for, with extra ballast, knocking the spikes in a little further or unscrewing the track a little to let more ballast under it.
GLUE
Two or three or so years ago, due to the small ballast gradually disappearing naturally or some being sucked up by the garden leaf vac (even though I had modified the vac turbine to have less suck), I decided to glue the ballast down with waterproof PVA. This has proved very successful and has only needed patching in places where the roadbed has moved a great deal.
The aggregates were 2mm-5mm (I tend to use only 2mm now).
Although all of the wood was pressure treated, some, the log roll in particular, was to last for not a great deal of time.
TREATED SPIKES
For the rest of the layout, where log roll was out of place in the garden design, I used pressure treated timber spikes at about 18" (45cm) driven into the ground so that the tops of them were at just below 'ballast level' and the track was screwed to these.
After about 6 years, the log roll and then the battens began to rot away so spikes were used again to replace the fixing points.
For the spikes to last a very long time they were not only pressure treated but I soaked them all in Cuprinol 5 star (other brands are available).
The first ones have now lasted for 12 years.
WHEN RUNNING TRACK ON TOP OF ROCKS
When I added a raised section which used rock to give the increase in height I drove and glued smaller diameter wooden spikes between the rocks to screw the track to at a few places (just to keep any flexi-track at the correct curve radius etc).
GROUND MOVEMENT
I have not had any real troubles with expansion but have had the inevitable ground movement (heave or sinking) with the different seasons. This I compensated for, with extra ballast, knocking the spikes in a little further or unscrewing the track a little to let more ballast under it.
GLUE
Two or three or so years ago, due to the small ballast gradually disappearing naturally or some being sucked up by the garden leaf vac (even though I had modified the vac turbine to have less suck), I decided to glue the ballast down with waterproof PVA. This has proved very successful and has only needed patching in places where the roadbed has moved a great deal.
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Rhinochugger
Retired Oik
Don't LGB have some sort of track clip?
It doesn't worry me because where I'm not using clamps, I'm using Aristo / Bachamm screwed fishplates - 'cos I love 'em
Rhinochugger
Retired Oik
Yep and also the size of ballast. - whether you're using a 'scale' ballast or an oversize ballast - very different effects, not just visually, but in the way they behave
JimmyB
Now retired - trains and fishing
Yes they, however I find on LGB R3 the clips are not long enough, and I have use 24 items of this track, and they are all tight to fit, bending the sleeper!Don't LGB have some sort of track clip?
It doesn't worry me because where I'm not using clamps, I'm using Aristo / Bachamm screwed fishplates - 'cos I love 'em
Rhinochugger
Retired Oik
Fred Mills
Registered
"Mike", whoever you are; gives us his experience (Thank you) but, again, as others have done, never iindicates WHERE HIS LITTLE SPOT IN THE WORLD IS....
Fred Mills
Registered
Yes, he does indicates with the "Jack", that he is in GB, but what soil, climate...etc are you experiencing, as a normal, where you are ?
Please.
Fr.Fred
Please.
Fr.Fred
Fred Mills
Registered
For anyone who is interested....My place in the North American picture, is subjected to temperatures of -40C, all the way up to +35C.
We get periods of rain, snow and ice, along with drought. Right at this minute, it is +30C...no rain, but "Humility" (Humidity) growing higher every day...
In the sun, today; resting my arm on a piece of brass rail, out in the sun; "Branded" me....this has happened many times....you just get used to it !!
Fr.Fred
We get periods of rain, snow and ice, along with drought. Right at this minute, it is +30C...no rain, but "Humility" (Humidity) growing higher every day...
In the sun, today; resting my arm on a piece of brass rail, out in the sun; "Branded" me....this has happened many times....you just get used to it !!
Fr.Fred
Greg Elmassian
Guest
Fred: I noticed that most people on this forum are in the UK, and most have at some point, or in their avatar, indicated where they live. I also have Google maps to see if any of them are living on a mountaintop covered with ice, or in a deep depression created by a meteor. (I hope that last part was worth a giggle)
Also, my comments on people's questions about ballast and fixing track took into consideration where the person asking the question lives. The idea is to help them. Actually, in this case with most of the group, and me in California, your climate is the exception not theirs. So while it is interesting you live in a climate that clearly has more extreme weather, it does not help the original poster with his question.
If you had asked the question, I'd be asking more about frost heave, etc, as befits your climate.
But not only has Clive indicated he is in the UK with his flag, but if you click on his name, you can see he's in Portsmouth, and even better below that you can click a link for more information.
So, let's not cast aspersions about "Mike" or complain about the fact I live in California, or that you live where it gets snow and heat. Let's help Clive.
Greg
Also, my comments on people's questions about ballast and fixing track took into consideration where the person asking the question lives. The idea is to help them. Actually, in this case with most of the group, and me in California, your climate is the exception not theirs. So while it is interesting you live in a climate that clearly has more extreme weather, it does not help the original poster with his question.
If you had asked the question, I'd be asking more about frost heave, etc, as befits your climate.
But not only has Clive indicated he is in the UK with his flag, but if you click on his name, you can see he's in Portsmouth, and even better below that you can click a link for more information.
So, let's not cast aspersions about "Mike" or complain about the fact I live in California, or that you live where it gets snow and heat. Let's help Clive.
Greg
JRinTawa
Member of the Wellington Garden Railway Group
May I suggest than this is another of the questions that if you can a visit to a few local railways, i.e. via the G Scale Society of 16mm NG Assocation local groups, it would be really helpful. Nothing beats seeing it in person and in the context of how you railway might look.
Personally I rather like track floating in a sharp sand ballast and rather enjoy the periodic maintenance that ensues, makes it feel even more like a real railway to me. But that said I have a section laid on concrete with the track set in mortar and a raise section on decking with a sand/cement/peak moss mix as ballast. Each is working well for me in the situation used, so, even on the one railway, I've found no perfect solution to cover all needs.
Have fun in whichever flavour suits
Personally I rather like track floating in a sharp sand ballast and rather enjoy the periodic maintenance that ensues, makes it feel even more like a real railway to me. But that said I have a section laid on concrete with the track set in mortar and a raise section on decking with a sand/cement/peak moss mix as ballast. Each is working well for me in the situation used, so, even on the one railway, I've found no perfect solution to cover all needs.
Have fun in whichever flavour suits
Greg Elmassian
Guest
And to open the kimono:
One part of my 850 feet of track is on free-floating coarse ballast.
another small section is lying on the edge of a smooth concrete patio, with no fixing at all.
another long straightaway on a 3.4% grade is on a concrete wall with synthetic wood embedded in it, and the track pinned to it every 5-8 feet.
and another is on "hardi backer" a smooth cement board 1/2" thick used in showers as underlayment for ceramic tile, with no fixing but no ballast so far
So, I do have some experience with different underlayments, but yes I am still in California, land of fruits, nuts and flakes!
Greg
One part of my 850 feet of track is on free-floating coarse ballast.
another small section is lying on the edge of a smooth concrete patio, with no fixing at all.
another long straightaway on a 3.4% grade is on a concrete wall with synthetic wood embedded in it, and the track pinned to it every 5-8 feet.
and another is on "hardi backer" a smooth cement board 1/2" thick used in showers as underlayment for ceramic tile, with no fixing but no ballast so far
So, I do have some experience with different underlayments, but yes I am still in California, land of fruits, nuts and flakes!
Greg
JimmyB
Now retired - trains and fishing
Fix or floating, or a mixture of both, its up to you, but if you are going to allow your track to float on the ballast, with no fixings at all then you need to ensure your tracks are fixed to each other and it would seem that rail clamps are the most common, though if you use Aristocraft track I would think their screwed fish-plates are pretty good. Even with my limited experience, if your track is loose and you have standard LGB type fish-plates the tracks separate, and for rail powered stock instant failure.
beavercreek
Travel, Art, Theatre, Music, Photography, Trains
Which 'Mike' are you referring to Fred?....... If it was me.. I am in East Anglia area in the UK and my layout has a facebook page where details of how this form of fixing track hangs together can be seen: www.facebook.com/beavercreekrailroad
If it was not me then I apologise sir and I will get back into my box .....
