3D Scratch Building

[Greg Elmassian]

I think that 3d printing throws a curve at terms we have used for years.

I'm a proponent of letting the builder use the term "scratch built" as he wants.

The people whose work really impresses me, whether buildings, like Ray Dunakin (here in San Diego) and Jaime here on this forum, don't even thump their chests and claim this or that, they show their work and it speaks for itself. I would also accept someone that severely bashed a kit, adding/changing walls, moving/modifying windows. But people who I respect that do this again do not thump their chests and claim scratch building, often they use the term "bash" as a combination/modification of components.

In locomotives, scratch building could be so tightly defined as you would have to make your own motor. Normally using a commercial motor and commercial wheels but the majority machined/created by the builder is "scratch built"... We have a person on another forum who is a great example, Bille on MLS: Building the John Wilkes

Again, the respected people are almost always modest, and just present their work. People will say: I started with these pieces I had to buy, etc.

And again, I have several "bashed" locos, a Northern, a 2-10-2 Mountain, and E8B, all of which were never produced by Aristo Craft, but skillfully bashed by Rex Ammerman, who never has called himself a scratchbuilder.

So I would submit that people arguing about it, just waste time.

I see where a person who has a pretty "strict" definition of scratch building would really not agree that anything 3D printed could be scratch building from his perspective, I get it.

But why argue? Right now, if you can get a loco 3d printed to look that good, you have solved some very difficult problems with wheels, valve gear, fine detail, etc. So far, I have not seen any loco 3d printed with details and surface quality that has impressed me, unless HOURS of finishing was involved, and that work I would respect.

So, I think let anyone call their work scratch built if they want, visual observation will tell the story as to what the result is. I'm waiting to be impressed with 3D printing steam locos and diesels.

Greg

 

[DafyddElvy]

Oh dear David, what have you started. Beginning to get as heated as the Newquida debate in the old Mad days.

Sorry folks, I honestly didn't mean to start an argument, it was simply a question that again entered my head and I thought I'd ask what others thought, sorry.

Off to file and solder some metal.

 

[viaEstrecha]

I just wish I had the talent to do any of the above stuff!

 

[JimmyB]

In locomotives, scratch building could be so tightly defined as you would have to make your own motor. Normally using a commercial motor and commercial wheels but the majority machined/created by the builder is "scratch built"... We have a person on another forum who is a great example, Bille on MLS: Building the John Wilkes

Greg

I don't disagree, the "machined" part could be lathe or miller, but this could also be CNC, but then is a CNC machines item any different from 3D printing, one is material removal, one is material addition.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Good point Jimmy, a person "operating" a CNC mill is not necessarily a scratch builder, very similar to 3d printing.

But I would have a lot of respect for someone that got the documents, drew the drawings, programmed the CNC and assembled the unit.

Greg

 

[phils2um]

To paraphrase - Is it scratch built? I can't define it but "I know it when I see it."

 

[Andreas]

hi,
now my 5 cent....
i think everything you can't buy as it is, is scratch build. But the borderline from changing a RTR model to a self-built one is fluid - and change with the technical and craft possibilities of a model builder.
I find all kinds of craftsmanship fascinating and respect people who can do more than I can - and respect those who can do less and are happy with it.

 

[ge_rik]

Interesting thread. To Jim's list I'd add
5a Scratch bash built
Which is how I class most of my builds. The bodies are scratch built but the chassis were adapted (is bashed) from commercial models

Maybe there's another nomenclature which could be devised for building with 3D designed and printed parts?

My most recent models have been entirely built from parts which I drew from scratch on screen. Inevitably, I have had to go back to the screen and redesign parts which don't quite fit - in exactly the same way as I did when scratchbuilt the model in plasticard.

With plasticard, I chose the thickness of card, drew each part with a ruler and pencil, cut out the part with a craft knife and glued it to the other parts. Small detailed parts, such as rivet heads, backhead detail, domes, safety valves etc were either bought or bashed from scrap items such as Biro barrels and deoderant stick lids etc.

With 3D printing in TinkerCAD, I reshape objects on the screen using on-screen rulers and a mouse pointer, the printer does the equivalent of the cutting out, and I then glue the parts together. Small details are painstakingly drawn on the screen by modifying (bashing) pre-existing shapes before they are then printed out.

The only difference between one and the other is the use of the printer to cut and shape the parts. I would argue that there is an extra level of skill required in shaping the parts on screen. Being able to visualise and manipulate 3D virtual objects on a 2D screen is a whole new set of skills requiring an incredible amount of precision (to 0.01mm tolerance). The computer enables me to zoom in to microscopic proportions - a bit like having a massively powerful lens strapped to my head. The computer does some of the work in that I can increase the precision of the mouse movement - but the movements still have to be made.

I'm not saying that moving the mouse is the same as slicing into solid material with a scalpel, but there is a similar level of skill required. I would argue they have equivalence.

The ability to design in 3D with precision on screen is a set of skills which are tricky to acquire - if they were easy everyone would be doing it.

So ..... whether we call it "scratchbuilding" or maybe "scratch designing" shouldnt imply some sort of denigration of what's involved. It's a slightly different set of skills but, I would argue, those skills are no lesser than those involved in scratch building.

Rik

Edit: Just seen Ricky's (Musket the Dog) post. I think we've said the same, only he managed to say it more succinctly.

 

[Paul M]

This could go on for ever.

 

[dunnyrail]

I just wish I had the talent to do any of the above stuff!

Nobody was born with the talent to solder or file metal, just like anything else you have to learn. Being shown by someone then having a go yourself by being watched by the guy that showed you is a big help. If you get over here this summer to see my line I could give you some help if you wish to gain those skills.

 

[JimmyB]

Nobody was born with the talent to solder or file metal, just like anything else you have to learn. Being shown by someone then having a go yourself by being watched by the guy that showed you is a big help. If you get over here this summer to see my line I could give you some help if you wish to gain those skills.

Agree, but some people cannot master certain skills, I cannot plaster or lay bricks (properly) but I have hand made, using saw, file, chisel etc. other hand tools, though now my sight is going and my fingers are less dexterous, I am loosing the skills through disability rather than lack of ability.

 

[dunnyrail]

Agree, but some people cannot master certain skills, I cannot plaster or lay bricks (properly) but I have hand made, using saw, file, chisel etc. other hand tools, though now my sight is going and my fingers are less dexterous, I am loosing the skills through disability rather than lack of ability.

Yup old age can get to you in the end, just never give up unless you have to. I gave up on my Chain Saw use around the time I moved from Hemel, I just did not feel safe using it anymore so got rid of it. A decision I have never regretted. Bricklaying gas stayed with me, not perfect but adequate for garden walls. Though my plastering was never good but I can manage a yard or so of what may be considered large repairs adequately.

 

[mike]

Scratch building...did you actually mine the ore or drill for oil your self,,or just buy the plasticard..or brass...were do you draw the line ..
At a model railway show, in a competition, a loco was entered..no details ..it didn't win , and the owner was puzzled why...well you added a driver, but its just a bought manufacturer loco...infact, he had scratch built the entire thing...except for the driver..
It was so good..
Scratch building is using what you can ,to get what you want..how you want,
And I judge no one,,we all have talents, we all started at the beginning and we are are learning as we go..

 

[Hal Farsed]

I am a bodge artist. Does that count?

 

[Greg Elmassian]

only in hexadecimal

 

[JimmyB]

only in hexadecimal

Surely heptadecimal for a bodger

 

[PhilP]

I 'm an Old-Bodger....

Octal!

 

[3 minutes of fame]

So is this coach I created on my laser cutter and 3d printed scratch built? I designed the cut and 3d print files myself, operated and set up the machines, assembled and painted it. I can certainly say it's all my own work, as I started with raw materials, but I short circuited the process by automating the production of the parts, that's all.

Answers on a postcard...

 

[JimmyB]

So is this coach I created on my laser cutter and 3d printed scratch built? I designed the cut and 3d print files myself, operated and set up the machines, assembled and painted it. I can certainly say it's all my own work, as I started with raw materials, but I short circuited the process by automating the production of the parts, that's all.

Answers on a postcard...

View attachment 294761

If you bought the raw materials (not a kit) produced the parts, assembled the parts, and painted the finished article, then surely it is scratch built

 

[Paul M]

So is this coach I created on my laser cutter and 3d printed scratch built? I designed the cut and 3d print files myself, operated and set up the machines, assembled and painted it. I can certainly say it's all my own work, as I started with raw materials, but I short circuited the process by automating the production of the parts, that's all.

Answers on a postcard...

Definitely scratch built in my mind, as the man said, you my not have used the tradition tools, files or hacksaw etc, but you used your design skills and skills with a different tool (a computer) to make it. Let's face it, a computer is a tool.