1:22.5 Scale Should be Recognised as a Tramway Modelling Scale

[DafyddElvy]

I have made a suggestion today to the TLRS (Tramway and Light Railway Society) for 1:22.5 scale to be formally recognised as a tramway modelling scale with its own set of standards, not G Scale which we all know, and is well documented as not being an actual scale.

Is their anyone else here using 1:22.5 as a scale to build their model trams that could be interested in putting a suggestion forward for the standards to be adopted?

David

 

[David1226]

I find 1:22.5 a strange choice for a 'standard', when most of the tram kits out there, and I'm thinking OcCre, are manufactured to 1/24 scale.

David

 

[schienenkönig]

My trams are all 1:22,5. My friends are doing them as well in 1:22,5

Trams made in Wuppertal

 

[tac foley]

Seems to me, with a total lack of interest by ANY mass-producer, that you can adopt whatever gauge and scale you care to. The only model trams I've seen here in UK were HUGE - at some unknown scale, and seemed to run on 3 1/2" gauge track.

 

[DafyddElvy]

Seems to me, with a total lack of interest by ANY mass-producer, that you can adopt whatever gauge and scale you care to. The only model trams I've seen here in UK were HUGE - at some unknown scale, and seemed to run on 3 1/2" gauge track.

That's 1/16 scale on 3.5" track.

David

 

[DafyddElvy]

I find 1:22.5 a strange choice for a 'standard', when most of the tram kits out there, and I'm thinking OcCre, are manufactured to 1/24 scale.

David

Gauge 3 is 1:22.6 which is only a nats wotsit of 1:22.5 scale, so for my modelling 1:22.5 scale makes perfect sense.

My point to the TLRS was that people are modelling in this scale so why don't we have a set of common standards we all work to.

I know, through forums, a few people modelling in the scale but I couldn't say with out asking each one individually what track and wheel standards they are using.

Anyhow, I'll be putting forward the track and wheel standards I'm using as a starting point and hopefully others will comment and we can come to an agreed set of standards we all work to going forward, unfortunately because their haven't previously been any standards for the scale there will still be models that won't be the same but such is life.

David

 

[maxi-model]

I think the scale of 1:22.5 is a hangover from the European/LGB convention of modelling metre gauge prototypes to run on 45 mm track systems. It' s a convenient match, like most adopted scales/gauge combinations that exist in the hobby. A widely available common track gauge will breed near fit scale models that can utilise it. But that does not explain OcCre's output. Exceptions that prove a rule ?

Have a look at this List of tram systems by gauge and electrification - Wikipedia. While metre gauge trams are popular the majority throughout the world are standard gauge. That then creates issues if you want a correct gauge to scale for your models and a decent market uptake.

And that maybe is what has seemingly stymied the greater development of tram themes in manufacturers portfolios. Take the Aristocraft PCC tram series. They were scaled at 1:29 and handily fitted in with their std gauge railroad items. Same with 1:22.5 reproductions of metre gauge prototypes, they handily fit in with other mainstream products in a makers range and a buyer's collection. Max

 

[DafyddElvy]

I think the scale of 1:22.5 is a hangover from the European/LGB convention of modelling metre gauge prototypes to run on 45 mm track systems. It' s a convenient match, like most adopted scales/gauge combinations that exist in the hobby. A widely available common track gauge will breed near fit scale models that can utilise it. But that does not explain OcCre's output. Exceptions that prove a rule ?

Have a look at this List of tram systems by gauge and electrification - Wikipedia. While metre gauge trams are popular the majority throughout the world are standard gauge. That then creates issues if you want a correct gauge to scale for your models and a decent market uptake.

And that maybe is what has seemingly stymied the greater development of tram themes in manufacturers portfolios. Take the Aristocraft PCC tram series. They were scaled at 1:29 and handily fitted in with their std gauge railroad items. Same with 1:22.5 reproductions of metre gauge prototypes, they handily fit in with other mainstream products in a makers range and a buyer's collection. Max

Max,

I don't disagree with anything you say, however, 1:22.5 is a nats wotsit off the Gauge 3 scale of 1:22.5, and it was this which helped me decide to adopt the scale of 1:22.5 as a modelling scale.
So if folk what to model trams in 1:22.5 scale there is a standard gauge track standard already in place, albeit that tramway modelling tends to use wheels a rail a scale down from the scale being modelled.
I am effectively using Gauge 1 fine scale wheel and track standards for Gauge 3 scale trams.

Now looking over the replies here and on the TLRS face book site, maybe what I should be suggesting is to put forward a set of standards for tramway modelling in Gauge 3 scale to include 1:22.5, that could possibly avoid some of the confusion of only associating 1:22.5 scale with what is known as G Scale.

As a quick trial I put a standard Bachmann G Scale powered tram truck on a more complex section of my indoor dual gauge test track this afternoon, a wee video of the trial.

David

 

[tac foley]

Aristocraft's streetcar prototypes actually DID run on standard gauge tracks all over North America. They are pretty large by Euro standards for single car vehicles. Similar set-ups can be found most everywhere - those I ride most often are the Portland MAXX, Seattle and Tronna and many other locations - all run on standard gauge. Even Astoria's veteran river-front streetcar, which runs off a trailing battery car just like a giant model!

 

[dunnyrail]

The problem with trying to see a standard is the difference of gauges around the sundry scales, in a word it is a mess. But there is some hope on offer here but not sure how many would go for it.

My own modeling has in the past gone down the route of 15mm to the foot for Irish Narrow Gauge on 45mm track. As near to perfect as you can get, works well for the Isle of Man Trains and Trams as well except for the Snaefell which is 3’6” Gauge thus the track would need to be specially made to 52.5 mm gauge if a model of Laxey were to be produced with the Trams and Snaefell. Here you see the issue and I have not even mentioned Metre Gauge Trams and Trains, yes so common in Europe. Then we get to Standard Gauge Trams, oh there were a few systems in UK that were 4ft Gauge and so we continue.

I doubt that if any standard were to be defined there would be equally little commercial scope as there are too few who would be buying, after all Tramway Modeling is a relatively minor interest (sorry David ) that I consider myself as one of the.

 

[Paul M]

after all Tramway Modeling is a relatively minor interest (sorry David ) that I consider myself as one of the.

Strange really, I know there's mot that much stuff available ready-to-run, but I would have thought a tram way layout would be ideal. Relatively sharp bends and shortish trains ought to be a modellers' dream

 

[dunnyrail]

Strange really, I know there's mot that much stuff available ready-to-run, but I would have thought a tram way layout would be ideal. Relatively sharp bends and shortish trains ought to be a modellers' dream

Indeed so, LGB R1 perfect for tram curves.

But scales of readily available kits Occre around 1:24 but all sorts of gauges involved I think, I have the London Double Decker (heavily modified) that should be standard gauge, Majorca certainly 3ft Gauge and so we go on. North Pilton do a Flexicity kit that I am building, but it looks more like 16mm to the foot scale to me though the gauge is relatively irrelevant an availability of 32 and 45 as Flexicity run on Metre and Standard gauge (predominantly) so those gauges are probably irrelevant for real scale/gauge relationship. LGB and Bachmann 4 wheel Trams, think it has been said here but with LGB flexible ruler who knows what they were looking at replicating. But it is certainly a pretty generic old time 4 wheeler of European appearance in the varying guises, yes there are more than one.

Then there are both companies Bogie offerings and Hartland (sadly off the market now) at varying scales.

 

[Software Tools]

TLRS is a pretty small group, so what's the point of looking to TLRS for standards?

There is quite a lot of 1:22.5 tramway modelling in Europe, so looking to the European tramway groups for 1:22.5 standards would make much more sense.

 

[Madman]

It is much simpler to model in the 1:24 scale. At least for us who still use the antiquated imperial system.....

 

[tac foley]

Looking on the 16mm FB pages, I see a few folks there 3D printing track with 4.5" radius, and running suitable NG outline stock on them. Might be even tighter!

 

[David1226]

It is much simpler to model in the 1:24 scale. At least for us who still use the antiquated imperial system.....

A major benefit is that the majority of diecast vehicles and accessories that can be used to populate a street scene are all modelled in 1/24th.

David

 

[maxi-model]

I still think, especially for an "enthusiast" niche market, you still need to maintain a reasonable relationship of scale and gauge compared to the actual prototype modeled to gain acceptance. With the caveat that to achieve any realistic level of commercial interest and success you need to align with the most popular gauges used and in production. So, that means 45 mm and either 1:22.5 or 1:29/32 for the larger scales and 1:76/87 with 16.5 & 9 mm gauge for the smaller. they both neatly cover the std/narrow gauge bases. Anything outside of that prescription is destined to be the preserve of the resourceful engineer/scratch builder.

But who am I to talk, running 16 mm to the foot scaled models of 2 ft gauged prototypes, in real life, on 45 mm gauge track rather than 32 mm ? And right there is an example of the market tolerating a major attack of the fudges because the buyer could be persuaded to want the subject matter so badly thy were willing to forgive a gauge to scale mismatch. Happy enthusiasts and traders all round. And that, generally, is how we ended up with that misnomer "G Scale". It can be done if you are happy to live with the resulting confusion. And the wheel has gone full circle Max

 

[Rhinochugger]

I still think, especially for an "enthusiast" niche market, you still need to maintain a reasonable relationship of scale and gauge compared to the actual prototype modeled to gain acceptance. With the caveat that to achieve any realistic level of commercial interest and success you need to align with the most popular gauges used and in production. So, that means 45 mm and either 1:22.5 or 1:29/32 for the larger scales and 1:76/87 with 16.5 & 9 mm gauge for the smaller. they both neatly cover the std/narrow gauge bases. Anything outside of that prescription is destined to be the preserve of the resourceful engineer/scratch builder.

But who am I to talk, running 16 mm to the foot scaled models of 2 ft gauged prototypes, in real life, on 45 mm gauge track rather than 32 mm ? And right there is an example of the market tolerating a major attack of the fudges because the buyer could be persuaded to want the subject matter so badly thy were willing to forgive a gauge to scale mismatch. Happy enthusiasts and traders all round. And that, generally, is how we ended up with that misnomer "G Scale". It can be done if you are happy to live with the resulting confusion. And the wheel has gone full circle Max

Would that be a 32mm gauge wheel or 45mm gauge, Max ?

 

[PhilP]

And.... What radius is the circle?