which (DC) controller?

[peterbunce]

Hi,
I am no electrician, and I have a 'All components' 5 amp controller, which has gone 'phut' I suspect due to a water short on my track. Therefore there will be no auto cut off. This occured after I had cleaned the wheels on my grandsons's Bachmann Big Hauler, at the time of the checking of it t the previous raini had stopped, though the ground was wet. An hour or sdo previous all was well, the wheels were cleaned with meths and wiped dry.

I have been looking at the Helmsman range as a replacement - more expensive than repair of the present one, but they have a lifertime gauarantee and an auto cut off.

Allcomponenets will repair my present one and 'think about' and RCD: the house power and the plug that powers the controller does have a RCD in the main fuse box but it did not cut the power. There is no RCD on the plug itself.

Any idease re repair or a new Helmsman (5 amp) one please?

 

[yb281]

Hi,
I am no electrician, and I have a 'All components' 5 amp controller, which has gone 'phut' I suspect due to a water short on my track. Therefore there will be no auto cut off. This occured after I had cleaned the wheels on my grandsons's Bachmann Big Hauler, at the time of the checking of it t the previous raini had stopped, though the ground was wet. An hour or sdo previous all was well, the wheels were cleaned with meths and wiped dry.

I have been looking at the Helmsman range as a replacement - more expensive than repair of the present one, but they have a lifertime gauarantee and an auto cut off.

Allcomponenets will repair my present one and 'think about' and RCD: the house power and the plug that powers the controller does have a RCD in the main fuse box but it did not cut the power. There is no RCD on the plug itself.

Any idease re repair or a new Helmsman (5 amp) one please?

No personal experience, but I've heard nothing but praise for Helmsmann's products and customer service Peter.

 

[Bram]

I have a helmsmann, it's a superb piece of kit and is great for fine control.

 

[Neil Robinson]

Allcomponenets will repair my present one and 'think about' and RCD: the house power and the plug that powers the controller does have a RCD in the main fuse box but it did not cut the power. There is no RCD on the plug itself.
Any idease re repair or a new Helmsman (5 amp) one please?

I'm all in favour of RCD devices but I doubt that one would have made any difference in this case. The transformer totally isolates the track output from the mains input so any leakage on the track side has no effect on the mains side protection. Just as well otherwise running in the wet would be hazardous and/or cause repeated tripping.
The controller output may have exceeded the design maximum but it should have a suitable overcurrent device to protect it against damage in this event. Assuming you have checked any external fuses does it have an internal fuse that may have blown?

 

[ntpntpntp]

Which controller have you got? Looking at the AllComponents web pages the 5 amp MPC5 says it has overload protection. The MPC6 doesn't specifically mention it but I'd be very surprised if it didn't have overload protection. Don't think I've ever come across a controller without some form of cut-out on the low voltage side. I still remember the decades-old Triang controllers I had in the 60's had a thermal trip with a little red button!

I agree with Neil, on the face of it I don't see how an RCD on what is probably a double-insulated unit would have helped with shorts due to a bit of water on the tracks, and seems unlikely it would cause the whole unit to go phut.

 

[Rhinochugger]

Yep - Helmsman

Geoff Helmsman really understands what he's doing - it's good stuff

 

[spike]

Just to make things clear about RCDs etc.

RCDs only check the balance between live and neutral......the difference has to be zero or it will trip.
A life saver.
It has no overload protection.

If your want short circuit/overload protection you will need an RCCB.
RCCBs do what an RCD does plus the short and overload protection.

I would suggest to fit an RCCB socket to outside facilities as one only fitted with the consumer unit
will trip the whole house.:thumbdown:

 

[don9GLC]

Just to make things clear about RCDs etc.

RCDs only check the balance between live and neutral......the difference has to be zero or it will trip.
A life saver.
It has no overload protection.

If your want short circuit/overload protection you will need an RCCB.
RCCBs do what an RCD does plus the short and overload protection.

I would suggest to fit an RCCB socket to outside facilities as one only fitted with the consumer unit
will trip the whole house.:thumbdown:

I'm sorry but I'm not sure that the above does make it clear.

An RCD fitted on the mains will not trip for a fault on the low voltage system, just as Neil and Rick pointed out.
An RCCB fitted on the mains will not trip for a fault on the low voltage system either. An overload, even a short circuit, on the low voltage side will not cause a sufficiently large current in the mains to trip any overload device there. If you replace it by something supersensitive, you are likely to have it trip most times you switch it on due to a phenomenon known as transformer inrush.

You MUST have an overload cutout / fuse (or both) on the low voltage system.

Its so important its worth saying again!

You MUST have an overload cutout / fuse (or both) on the low voltage system.

regards, Don

 

[Rhinochugger]

Its so important its worth saying again!

You MUST have an overload cutout / fuse (or both) on the low voltage system.

regards, Don

OK, I fully realise the import of what you're saying, Don. What really suprises me is that, after playing with model trains for almost 50 years in various gauges, that there are actually transformer/controller units that do not have an overload cut out on the low voltage side.

If that's the case, then my advice to anyone thinking of analogue would be to go Helmsman for one specific reason.

Geoff Helmsman made a special overlaod cut out for his Garden railway transformer/controllers, that is designed to have an infinitessimal delay in its action, to take into account some of the load characteristics of garden railway locos.

To get the full electric/electronic understanding, you need to speak to Geoff direct, but it's this that makes his controllers arguably the best for Analogue users.

I am not on commission, I only bought one at full price the reason that I know this is that I built my own transformer/controller, but the overload cut out let it down as it was a standard motor car unit, that acted too slowly and the one of the elctronic components went haywire in the split second that it took the cut out to operate :brokeheart:

 

[spike]

Just to make things clear about RCDs etc.

RCDs only check the balance between live and neutral......the difference has to be zero or it will trip.
A life saver.
It has no overload protection.

If your want short circuit/overload protection you will need an RCCB.
RCCBs do what an RCD does plus the short and overload protection.

I would suggest to fit an RCCB socket to outside facilities as one only fitted with the consumer unit
will trip the whole house.:thumbdown:

I'm sorry but I'm not sure that the above does make it clear.

An RCD fitted on the mains will not trip for a fault on the low voltage system, just as Neil and Rick pointed out.
An RCCB fitted on the mains will not trip for a fault on the low voltage system either. An overload, even a short circuit, on the low voltage side will not cause a sufficiently large current in the mains to trip any overload device there. If you replace it by something supersensitive, you are likely to have it trip most times you switch it on due to a phenomenon known as transformer inrush.

You MUST have an overload cutout / fuse (or both) on the low voltage system.

Its so important its worth saying again!

You MUST have an overload cutout / fuse (or both) on the low voltage system.

regards, Don

Slight error.........where I typed RCCB should read RCBO.
I was'nt refering to the low voltage side.
but
what do you think will happen if the secondary winding of a transformer shorts to primary
and earth at the same time?.......can't happen......seen it many times.
Never assume you will know the current flowing under fault conditions.
Don't assume any cutout or fuse will protect your gear in a fault event, it should
but I have seen plenty that don't.
In 40 years I have earnt a fair living of overloads, fuses and cutouts that failed to work.
BTW
Surge currents are covered by picking the right rating for the device.
Mains cutouts have ratings to take care of inductive loads and should be picked with care.

 

[chris m01]

I'm not sure water will have caused your problem. I have run trains in heavy rain without any problem and also many times with snow covering the tracks. I think you need to look elsewhere for the cause of the problem. I have put a fuse in the track circuit as it is better to replace a fuse than a control unit.

The Warley club indoor layout has used a Helsman unit since March and I must say I am very happy with it. I'm also happy with the customer service. So my short experience of Helmsman is very positive.

In the garden I use an Aristo Train engineer. If you run DC and you want to be able to control your trains while you are in the garden with then this is a good solution. Keep it on linear rather than pwc though. One great thing about the TE is that you can control points from it as well.