What water should I use?

[thumper]

Don't get side-tracked on the rainwater/dehumidifier water issue. It is a difference without a distinction. They are the same but for impurities which can be filtered out. Rain water is nothing more than condensed water vapor and that is what you get from a dehumidifier, condensed water vapor. Just because it is in your house doesn't mean that one is purer than the other.

As I said in my earlier posting, wait for a few minutes before you start collecting. Let the airborne dirt and dirt from your roof top go down the drain before you start collecting it. If you are worried about the rainwater being acidic, neutralizing the water is a really easy task. If you have a chemist nearby, ask for suggestions. As I recall from my college chemistry classes some 45 years ago, Litmus paper will tell you whether the water is acidic or basic.

Go to the following link for more info. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litmus_test

Regards, and stick with filtered rain water and neutralized if necessary.

Will

 

[Steveg58]

I see a lot of nonsense poster on various forums about water. Essentially there are two problems to worry about.
1) Boiler scale
2) Electrochemical replacement

Boiler scale covers the deposition of any dissolved solids into the boiler and water lines. This reduces the efficiency of the boiler by reducing the heat transfer rate across the deposit. Deposits can also build up to the point where they narrow or block tubing or a piece may flake off and be carried with the flow and lodge somewhere possibly blocking the flow. Boiler scale may be soluble in insoluble. Soluble deposits may be removed by flushing the affected area with hot water. In soluble deposits are most commonly calcium carbonate which is dissolvable using weak acid. Do not be tempted to up the acid strength if the deposit does not dissolve as gypsum (calcium sulfate) or alums will not readily dissolve in acids. Soluble boiler scale happens any time the water contains a lot of disolved solids of any PH. Insoluable boiler scale mostly happens in weakly alkiline solutions.

Electrochemical repacement is where a reactive metal in the boiler metal is pulled into solution to release a less reactive metal from in the solution. Copper, Iron, and Hydrogen present as ions in the water will all preferentially replace Zinc. This is usually a problem with brass boilers but may also attack silver solders depening on the exact alloy composition of he solder. Often the precipitated metal will also form insoluable boiler scale. The general problem here is the weakening of joints and the boiler structure. The Australian miniature boiler codes prohibit boilers made from certain alloys and also certain compositions of silver solder that are known to be vunerable to this form of corrosion. This usually occers in water that is either stongly alkiline or mildly to strongly acidic.

Just because the water has neutral PH does not mean it is safe. You have to also know the total dissolved solids and Ionic concentratons.

Steam distilled water, dehumidifier / dryer water and refrigerator ice are the most pure sources of water but be aware of what the wayer may be in contact with.

De-ionised water is created by passing the water through two columns filled with ion replacement resins. One that traps all the positive ions and repaclaces them with hydrogen and another that similarly replaces all the negative ions with hydroxide. Negative hydroxide plus positive hydrogen equals water. Bingo pure. Unfortunately the manufacturers can run the colums too long or improperly regenerate the resins and substantial contamination of the product can result.

Rain water is very environmentally dependent. It can be very pure or it can be quite acid or salty depending on how close to the sea you are and wether you have downwind pollution. It usually contains substantial dissolved gasses which can be a problem in theit own right. The worst rainwater can be far worse than the worst tap water or de-ionised water.

Tap water always contains substantial dissolved gasses most especially chlorine which can react with copper in a way that very little else can. Tap water is usually treated to be neutral or slightly alkiline which makes it better that rain water near a pollution source. Tap water may contain substantial dissolved salts. Water from the hot tap may also contain substantial dissolved copper and zinc.

Is any of this a problem ... maybe not. If you have a properly constructed boiler made with good silver solder and you never have to descale your kettle then tap water may be perfectly acceptable. Just boil it first fro a minute or so to drive off the dissolved gasses.

If you have a heritage boiler of one of unknown provenence or you used cheap silver solder or you regulaly have to descale your kettle then use a purified water.

If you are paranoid go to a yachting supply store and get a small zinc sacrificial anode. Cut off a small piece and drop it in your water storage container. Anything that will attack your boiler will hopefully be used up attacking the zinc metal.

Getting an ion concentration meter may also be good if you can afford it. Test stuff and report back here!

 

[bobg]

Is any of this a problem ... maybe not. If you have a properly constructed boiler made with good silver solder and you never have to descale your kettle then tap water may be perfectly acceptable. Just boil it first fro a minute or so to drive off the dissolved gasses. If you have a heritage boiler of one of unknown provenence or you used cheap silver solder or you regulaly have to descale your kettle then use a purified water. If you are paranoid go to a yachting supply store and get a small zinc sacrificial anode. Cut off a small piece and drop it in your water storage container. Anything that will attack your boiler will hopefully be used up attacking the zinc metal. Getting an ion concentration meter may also be good if you can afford it. Test stuff and report back here!

This seems to be the best advice (certainly that I have seen).

I do think the subject is one that worries most live steamers to some extent, especially those new to it or those that have had a problem unexpectedly.

I liked the suggestion about the zinc anode, that's one I haven't seen before.

 

[thumper]

Since when did postings on this site become "nonsense"? You've made some errors too, but they don't justify name calling?

"As you sow, ye are like to reap." Let's keep this site civil.

Apologies are deserved!

 

[bobg]

My sincere apologies Thumper, I should perhaps have been a little more careful with the "cut and paste" the last couple of sentences from the previous post were not required to make my point.

 

[brianthesnail96]

M' not sure it was meant personally...

Although I'll be the first to admit that my posting above is pretty nonsense, not knowing exactly what deionised water is nor the problems with it and relying on my patchy A level chemistry knowledge.

It's always a subject that causes debate, but I don't think there's anything in this thread meant as anything other than civilized debate.

 

[thumper]

Sorry about the confusion I have caused.

My comment was directed at the post by STEVEG58.

Regards,

Will

 

[thumper]

SOLAR STILLS

How about a small solar still to produce your water source? The cost should be nominal, operationally, it's free, and the end product is contaminant free. If you have an area for a layout, presumably, you have an area for a small solar still. It could be portable as well, so if you didn't want to see it, or if your best solar location isn't the best practical location [foot paths, etc.] you could put it out of sight when when your supply is built up and it isn't needed. Just a thought.

Here's a link for general information on building a solar still: http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1974-09-01/How-To-Build-and-Use-A-Solar-Still

Good luck.

Will

 

[bobg]

Like it!!!

Even if burning hydro-carbons is anti-social, at least the water will be cosher.

Will it distill other liquids....like my favourite tipple (Opps! I forgot that's anti-revenue)

 

[palmerston]

Roundhouse recommends distilled water....

If the sightglass gets white then it nessesary to clean the boiler.

 

[bobg]

Whiteness on the gauge glass usually indicates a calcium build up and shouldn't really happen if the water is truely distilled.

I still like the still like the still like the still, idea. When I've a bit of time I might build one and mount it on my garage roof which just happens to face due south. I knew it was that way round for a reason!

 

[Steveg58]

Since when did postings on this site become "nonsense"? You've made some errors too, but they don't justify name calling?

"As you sow, ye are like to reap." Let's keep this site civil.

Apologies are deserved!

Hmm ... you seem to be overreacting. I never said this site and in fact I had a couple of other sites in mind when I wrote this. An a *lot* of nonsense has been written about de-ionised water by people who have no clue how it is produced. A lot of nonsense has also been written about which kind of water should be used without taking any account of regional variations. These are facts. I call no names and make no accusations.

Keeping a site civil is a two way street and it also involves not making aff the cuff accusations of intent before you know that intent was actually present.

 

[minimans]

Why does this subject always end up in an argument?? it's a bit like the old LGB Vs The rest!! It all boils (no pun intended!) down to the advice I made in my first post. Use REAL distilled water if you can get it or filtered rain water, dehumidifier water at second best. it really isn't rocket science and doesn't need to be..........................Paul......................

 

[bobg]

But I liked the pun!!!!

 

[bobg]

Further to my promise above in #36, I have now completed my still. If anyone wants further details I will post a full description with more photos.

 

[Old Tom]

Further to my promise above in #36, I have now completed my still. If anyone wants further details I will post a full description with more photos.

Yes please Bob. On the photo it looks like a picture frame with a photo of some wheely bins inside it and I'd like to have a go at building one.

Cheers

 

[bobg]

Sure thing Tom, give me a day or two to sort it out (shrink the piccys etc.) and I'll post it fresh under Live Steam.

It's still under test, but whilst the results so far wouldn't set the world on fire (neither would the weather) they could be promising.
(You notice I kept well out of the picture, I might have broken the glass )

 

[bobg]

It has to be the old "Horses for courses" in the end, if tap water with the odd clean-out works for you; go for it. Round here and certainly in parts of London the water is so full of lime a new kettle can fur up almost overnight. In Edinburgh you could use tap water for ever and no problem. Thumper put up that URL, so I thought "why not?", plus there's a bit of Scot in me somewhere and this is FREE (and a bit of fun)!

I also tend to take a different view of maintenence, more akin to space shuttle /F1 practice, if the stuff isn't there in the first place, then you don't have to deal with it. Adding acid (vinigar or whatever) will certainly attack the lime but what if you don't put enough in, or too much. Try leaving a small piece if brass in vinigar overnight and see what colour it is tomorrow.

I'm afraid it's one of those subjects on which everyone will take a different view, there is no real right or wrong. Anyone new to it will ask as many people as possible what they do, and then make their own decision based on that, and that's exactly how it should be.