Very basic questions

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rgsmg53

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As someone new to G Sale and also to DCC, I have been watching and learning form this excellent forum for some time now. Having been fairly competent with OO and analogue electrics in my youth, I had lost touch with technological advances in the hobby. The arrival of a grandson is the excuse I needed to rekindle my interest and I would like to move into DCC from the start of a small G scale railway.

My very basic question is this: What is the difference between a 'sound card' and a 'decoder'? As far as I can tell, a basic decoder provides functional control via one or more outputs controlling a loco's motor and other things such as lights. Does a sound card merely provide sounds and no functional control and is this different to a 'sound decoder'?

What I would like to be able to do from the start is to fit a decoder which will control up to five functions (motor, lights, auto uncoupler, etc) and some basic sounds such as whistle and exhaust note.

Apologies for the elementary questions but any advice would be most welcome.
 
The first DCC decoders just covered the movement of the loco.
Subsequently sound came along and was usually added as an extra board.
Finally combined movement/sound decoders came along.
In the meantime decoders of all sorts gained more & more functions.

What you use will to some extent be determined by fashion, how easy to fit to a particular locomotive, price etc.
 
rgsmg53 said:
My very basic question is this: What is the difference between a 'sound card' and a 'decoder'? (snip)

What I would like to be able to do from the start is to fit a decoder which will control up to five functions (motor, lights, auto uncoupler, etc) and some basic sounds such as whistle and exhaust note.
Click to expand...

They're very reasonable questions. Welcome to the "dark side" of digital command control. In addition to my reply, you may want to check out the products at http://www.massoth.de < Link To www.massoth.de as examples. Other manufacturers are available!

Decoder - decodes the basic signals (as defined by the NMRA DCC standards) from a DCC central station to the loco. Those are loco ID, direction, speed & up to 16 other functions which are usually combinations of things such as lights and smoke generators, but could include an auto uncoupler on one of the functions. Decoders built for G scale use (amps/ volts) are typically around GBP50-55 (e.g. Massoth L or XL).

Sound board - an add-on to the decoder which provides sound functions, usually ordered for a specific loco with that loco's sounds, but these days invariably capable of being reprogrammed to another set of sounds. Sometimes confusingly called a sound decoder, even by manufacturers. Typically around GBP100 (e.g. Massoth S).

Sound decoder - a combined decoder and sound board. Typically GBP150 upwards. (e.g. Massoth LS/XLS).

You'll note that sound commands a hefty premium over a basic DCC decoder. If you want to get seriously into sound, I recommend you speak with a reputable model shop with a view to getting them to help with the programming which can be considerably more involved than adding a simple decoder. Garden Rail Outlet (owned by a GSC member) and P&S Hobbies of York spring to mind.
 
Thank you both for your replies. It's all gradually starting to make sense.

At the moment I have a Bachmann Lyn and an LGB Stainz. Looking at your suggested prices for combined decoder and sound boards they would be worth more than the locos themselves! So perhaps I should start simple and work up. Is it feasible to install a decoder first and then add a sound card to it later?

Although I have not measured DC motor currents yet, I'm told that a 1.5 Amp decoder should be adequate for either loco. Having trawled the web for decoders that appear to be in the price range I think I can afford, I have found a Zimo MX632 decoder (£38 ish) which would give me 1.6 Amps continuous. Would I be able to 'upgrade' this to sound or would I need replace it when the time came? As far as I can tell both locos already have speakers fitted.
 
At the moment I have a Bachmann Lyn and an LGB Stainz. Looking at your suggested prices for combined decoder and sound boards they would be worth more than the locos themselves! So perhaps I should start simple and work up. Is it feasible to install a decoder first and then add a sound card to it later?

Yes it certainly is.

Although I have not measured DC motor currents yet, I'm told that a 1.5 Amp decoder should be adequate for either loco. Having trawled the web for decoders that appear to be in the price range I think I can afford, I have found a Zimo MX632 decoder (£38 ish) which would give me 1.6 Amps continuous. Would I be able to 'upgrade' this to sound or would I need replace it when the time came? As far as I can tell both locos already have speakers fitted.


Should be fine as a seperate sound unit would use/need its own supply.
 
Not absolutely true Gizzy, I've got a couple of MX 632 with Ulhenbrock (same as Dietz) sound modules connected. They are powered via the decoder using Susi for the sound control.
By far the most flexible and cost effective option in your case would be a Zimo MX 645 decoder. As supplied it will give you a choice of whistles,chuff sounds etc as well as already fitted wiring for a stay alive capacitor.The 3 watt output is plenty loud enough even when used with a tiny 'sugar cube' speaker.
Decoder is around £85 from Digitrains (and others).
I'll try and do a video in the week if you are interested.
 
rgsmg53 said:
So perhaps I should start simple and work up. Is it feasible to install a decoder first and then add a sound card to it later?
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Definitely, though be aware that your space is limited in the Stainz's boiler. You may want to dismantle it and check dimensions before deciding on your chip(s). Don't be tempted to remove the large weight in the boiler. The Stainz needs it for good performance. There's a good illustrated guide to dismantling a Stainz here:
http://shop.waltonsmodels.co.uk/Stainz.php

rgsmg53 said:
Although I have not measured DC motor currents yet, I'm told that a 1.5 Amp decoder should be adequate for either loco. Having trawled the web for decoders that appear to be in the price range I think I can afford, I have found a Zimo MX632 decoder (£38 ish) which would give me 1.6 Amps continuous. Would I be able to 'upgrade' this to sound or would I need replace it when the time came? As far as I can tell both locos already have speakers fitted.
Click to expand...

You could use an MX632, but it may not be an ideal choice. First, it's designed for the OO/HO DCC world which has slightly lower expected and peak voltages than G scale DCC. The Zimo should cope with G scale peak voltage (most chips seem to be tested up to 30 volts), but it's worth checking. You should also be aware that typical OO/HO chip wires are very fine compared to those used on G scale kit. Not of itself an issue, but it makes life harder when trying to attach the various wires to lights etc. You may also have to acquire appropriate pins (like these) http://www.gardenrailoutlet.co.uk/pin-contact-plug to make good contact with the pins on the Stainz chassis.

All the above assumes that you have a basic starter set Stainz which just needs wires trimming and connecting to the decoder. If you have a Stainz with a factory-fitted decoder socket (or even if you have doubts about the Zimo decoder), you may want to think about a Massoth L decoder. Designed for the job and a doddle to install and program.

You can get an idea of some of the different Stainz internals and decoder wiring options from my posts on the subject earlier this year here (post 93 if not connected directly):
http://www.gscalecentral.net/fb.ashx?m=258628 < Link To http://www.forum.gscalece.ral.net/fb.ashx?m=258628

Edit - while typing this Shropshire Lad posted re the attractions of a different Zimo decoder. He is wise in matters Zimo, so follow his path of enlightenment!
 
There's certainly no problem with adding sound later, there's even options. You can add a dcc sound board such as the Massoth S mentioned above or something like the Mylocosound board which would give a basic chuff rather than actual recordings if real locos like on the dcc sound units. The dcc boards offer more control and realisim but that's why they cost more ;)
Might be worth popping down to the Exeter garden railway show next weekend to see if there are any layouts or traders you can actually see and talk about the options. Can't see anything obvious in the list but It'll be worthwhile regardless.
http://www.exetergardenrailwayshow.com/index.html
 
rgsmg53 said:
Looking at your suggested prices for combined decoder and sound boards they would be worth more than the locos themselves!
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Though not new to G scale, I look at DCC as very much a ' black art'! And with such silly prices, way beyond my budget. So, I was intrigued by the German Train Line's demo recently of a Raspberry Pi (that £30 DIY computer aimed at encouraging kids to play with the back end of computing), which was used in conjunction with a Smartphone app and domestic wifi to achieve cab control without loads of wires. Other clever folk appear to be using them to operate points etc. Quite as to the technical side of how that was achieved, I've yet to discover and I may well have been fooled by smoke and mirrors.

DCC does still seem to be a most desirable tool but only for the very deep-pocketed enthusiast and so I am rather hoping that such developments might bring some of the fancy stuff within reach of the skint simpleton like yours truly, in the next few years! Maybe this is wishful thinking and decoders etc will remain hugely expensive (compared to a lot of of other electronic gizmos outside modelling). Any thoughts or predictions from the DCC fraternity - will I ever be able to consider digital a realistic option?
 
viaEstrecha said:
Any thoughts or predictions from the DCC fraternity - will I ever be able to consider digital a realistic option?
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Yes. Today!

Price is all relative. For example, a Raspberry Pi looks really cheap until you add the cost of a keyboard, storage device, display screen and other paraphenalia we assume as standard. Then you realise it's not cheap at all.

The same goes for DCC. Yes, chips cost money, but so does running wires to an analogue line and fitting some kind of control panel if you're going to do more than run a couple of trains in circles. It's horses for courses. If all you want to do is run trains in circles, that's fine. It's a perfectly noble form of G scaling.
 
Of course there is always "pensioners" DCC.
I speak of Radio Control using either track power or battery or Live Steam. Cheap as chips relatively speaking. I bought enough RC gear to control 5 of my trams for less than AU$150 but the setup I got will allow me to control up to 99 trams in batches of 5.... NO NOT ALL AT ONCE. I'm only a recent convert but for me this has been both a Eureka moment and a guiding light along the road to Damascus..... I'll never look back.... You can have RC sound, speed & direction control, lights...
 
I have to agree with Peter, it's cost effective now. It just depends what you want to do. I have a waterproof point motor decoder waiting to go in that fits inside an Lgb point motor. Ok so it cost me around 25 notes but there is no wiring and no control panel so no switch to buy. Charging my time at a nominal tenner an hour there isn't a lot in it compared to DC control.

Peter the mid sized Zimo decoders are fairly robust being suitable for single motored O gauge models,as well having heavier gauge wiring than a typical OO decoder.
 
Why dont you try Lenz as an alternative. A complete Lenz 100 system will cost you about £300 - compared to really silly prices for Massooth (for example). Lenz decoders are also ideal, with A Lenz silver (3 amps) at about £25 and a Lenz gold Maxi at around £60 - and they are well warranted, Ive just had one of my Lenz Controllers repaired and upgaraded including return postage for £16.75 and it was back to me in 2 weeks !! Pretty good when you consider the unit was 10 years old
Graham
 
Another Lenz Lh100 user here Graham, 8 years old and still
a great piece of kit due to cheap and easy upgrades.
Along with some other decoder suppliers Lenz don't seem to be keeping up with the ever increasing demands of us modellers. A shame really as I would buy Lenz decoders if they had more of the features I like and made some top notch sound decoders.
 
I should be there on the exhibit stand of the Devon G Scale society group "Trains in your Garden" from some time (yet to be confirmed) in the afternoon until close of play when I'm helping pack up. The stand normally has one DCC loop and a DC loop so there should be some DCC stuff running and I shall be taking some of my DCC stuff to provide variety of stock. Still very new to this DCC business myself but we can talk about some aspects. I'll post a better time guide when I'm "on duty" later.
Chris

PaulRhB said:
There's certainly no problem with adding sound later, there's even options. You can add a dcc sound board such as the Massoth S mentioned above or something like the Mylocosound board which would give a basic chuff rather than actual recordings if real locos like on the dcc sound units. The dcc boards offer more control and realisim but that's why they cost more ;)
Might be worth popping down to the Exeter garden railway show next weekend to see if there are any layouts or traders you can actually see and talk about the options. Can't see anything obvious in the list but It'll be worthwhile regardless.
http://www.exetergardenrailwayshow.com/index.html
Click to expand...
 
Well I've never found any feature that I couldn't add to my Lenz system that a more expensive system would have provided.

Sound is easy to add to Lenz decoders via the SUSI bus.

Lenz told me earlier in the year that the Lenz Gold Maxi+ decoders would be out in November/December.
 
Do you know if they will have load dependant and speed programmable function outputs Cliff? A programmable uncoupling 'shuffle' would be a good addition too.
I should add that I used Lenz decoders when I modelled OO gauge and they were bullet proof.
 
Cliff George said:
Sound is easy to add to Lenz decoders via the SUSI bus.
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Sorry, but yet another question. What is SUSI?

I've looked on the web and found what appears to be a standard at http://www.nmra.org/standards/DCC/standards_rps/SUSI-1.31-english.pd. < Link To http://www.nmra.org/stand.../SUSI-1.31-english.pd.
This suggests that one of its functions is sound but the standard appears to me just to cover a communications bus. Does it mean that there is 'standard' connection protocol such that if I purchased any decoder with SUSI then I ought be able to connect any sound card with SUSI? Am I right in thinking that SUSI is the DCC-world's equivalent to something like USB in the PC-world (not the store!)?

Thanks again for everyone's help.
 
rgsmg53 said:
Sorry, but yet another question. What is SUSI?

Thanks again for everyone's help.
Click to expand...
Basically, a four wire connection that provides power on 2 lines and data on t'others.

I've used one to connect a Massoth L decoder to a Massoth S (sound) decoder (effectively creating a Massoth LS I guess)....
 
shropshire lad said:
Not absolutely true Gizzy, I've got a couple of MX 632 with Ulhenbrock (same as Dietz) sound modules connected. They are powered via the decoder using Susi for the sound control.
Click to expand...
Good point made mate!

As mentioned in preceeding post, I've done connected a Massoth L to an S.

You are supposed to disconnect the S decoder's power input if you do this, but for some reason, it didn't work for me, so the S decoder power has been re-instated.

Possibly a faulty SUSI connection? Not sure but it works for now....
 
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