Trying another method for Roads, gravel and ballast

gregh

electronics, computers and scratchbuilding
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A number of my recent experiments may be of interest....
1. Ballast
I have always used 5mm gravel mixed 6:1 with cement for ballasting.
See my old topic here....
https://www.gscalecentral.net/index.php?topic=38178.msg38178#msg38178

It works reasonably well `on the ground`, just needing minor repairing every few years.
oldballast.JPG

But when I`ve used it on raised `baseboards` it breaks up in `clumps` very quickly.
broken clumps.JPG

This is my latest idea – I placed plastic mesh (roof gutter leaf guard) under the track before laying the ballast. We`ll see if it lasts any better.
ballast net.JPG


2. Gravel and grass
I use decomposed granite for the (full size) walkways around my railway. It`s a brownish colour and mostly `stones` only about 3mm diameter or less.
granite.jpg

I`ve tried mixing this with cheap water-based fence paint. Amazingly if `sets` quite hard after a couple of days. I`ve used brown paint to represent gravel beside a tarred road and green paint for `grass` or `weeds`. It looks a bit bright when first done but tones down within a few days.
This pic shows the `weeds` between the tracks
new ballast.jpg
closeup.jpg

3. Roads
Way back when? I used an old camping foam `mattress` as a road at Lilyvale. It was laid on a slurry of sand/cement.
rubberroad.jpg

It was an expensive mattress leftover from my youthful camping days, and has lasted really well as a road – no scuffs or holes. Then later, for an extension to the road, I bought a similar, cheaper mattress for just a few dollars, but it hasn`t lasted at all – shows you get what you pay for. Recently we replaced the lino tiles in our laundry – these were self-adhesive types and came off easily. So I`ve tried gluing them upside down onto the rubber road. I used the method above to make the gravel verges and some grass in front of the houses.
road.jpg
road3.jpg

Now to wait for a few years to see how it all lasts.
 
Interesting ideas, Greg.

Like you, I've been finding that the gravel/cement dry-mix seems fine on the ground-based sections but tends to crumble quite quickly on my raised sections. Not sure if it's because it dries out more, or the frost gets under it or because the raised section is more liable to flexing (or a combination of all three). I've tried combining the gravel/sand/cement mix with diluted exterior PVA dribbled on while wet, which lasts a bit longer on the raised sections, but still disintegrates after a while. I've just been experimenting with flexible tile grout instead of cement (had half a bag left over after tiling the kitchen floor). It smells as if it has some sort of PVA already mixed in, in powder form. It seems to cohere more. As you say, time will tell.

For station areas, I've been using a wet-mix of cement/sand and gravel. That does seem to stay-put longer.

Rik
 
I had never glued/cemented my ballast down, but this year, after seemingly continuous windy days, I was totally fed up with clearing the needles and debris that fell on the track as the layout wound itsway around, under and through the trees and bushes. This was even after I had used mesh screens woven into the bushes and trees to catch the stuff (these usually do very well but the windy days have defeated even them).

I had `modified` my garden vac, by `trimming` the turbine blades so that it didn`t pick up the gravel....but...of course it still picked up some of the finer bits.
I needed to re-ballast this summer, as over the last few years, the vacuuming, the bouts of torrential rain and the natural settling, had caused the ballast to subside a bit, quite a bit in places.

I thought...well it is going to be a big job so try to do it right.
I bought some very fine ballast 2 to 4mm granite and slate mix. I also bought some very high strength exterior PVA medium.
Laid the ballast loosely, packed into the tie/sleepers with brushes etc and then applied the diluted 1:2 mixed with a squirt of detergent.
I used my garden sprayer with a modified nozzle to allow the thicker liquid to come out in a nice controlled concentrated squirt.

It seeped into the ballast nicely and I immediately cleaned any spills off of the railhead.
Points had to be done veerrryyy carefully but ........... the end result is a really solid road bed, the glue dries to a nice matt finish (except where I made a too thick batch of the mix and it torrentially rained and the glue went white and then dried again with a bit of a sheen.
It worked so well that I then applied it to the other types of ballast that I had used around the layout......
I even applied it to the areas where I had used sand for paths or dirt roads.
In fact I am going to do it to nearly all of the ballast.

Needles, leaves, small sticks etc now come off easy with a battery car vacuum cleaner...........

How it stands up to the winter is now the question.....

The first bit done was under the weeping juniperus pine...the one with darned sharp needles some of which can be seen here!
ballast glued and now ready for the hoover....jpg

After the result with the first batch, the same 2mm ballast and glue method was used wherever I had used grey ballast like on the step down/up from the lawn across the oak beam
ballast by step on oak beam.jpg

Flushed with success it went onto the red ballasted areas especially the one where the ballast was ramped up and would always spread over the flat area.
red ballast glued 1.jpg

red ballast glued 2.jpg

And finally, for now, the same gluing system was used on the `High Line` to stop the ballast being washed over the side. The white stuff on one of the ties is not the glue but the remiais of bird poo..
high line glued ballast.jpg
 
Beavercreek
Can you put a reminder for 5 years time to tell us all how your pva method lasts? ;D

One of my friends uses your pva method too. Looks good in your pics. But the exterior pva is expensive stuff. I am very impressed that you and Rik, ballast right around your turnouts. I'm not game to try.
 
What size mesh is the gutter leaf-guard? - I had thought of trying a Filchris recycled plastic ladder construction with a mesh 'base' for the track.. Loose ballasted. This to allow good drainage.
The mesh would have to be fairly fine, reasonable robust, and definitely UV stable.
 
gregh said:
Beavercreek
Can you put a reminder for 5 years time to tell us all how your pva method lasts? ;D

One of my friends uses your pva method too. Looks good in your pics. But the exterior pva is expensive stuff. I am very impressed that you and Rik, ballast right around your turnouts. I'm not game to try.
Hi Greg
I will keep you informed as to longevity.... the real test will be a hard night frost after a wet day.
As to expense...I agree the high strength exterior PVA is not the cheapest but I was able to get a bulk deal and four 5 litre cartons will be about enough to do it all.
I have to say that it is great to be able to just whisk or gently suck the needles off the track bed without also losing some of the nice small ballast pieces. The price was worth it...so far.

Also as to the ballasting around the points/switches...a lot of care is needed but once the ballast is in place, checked for no fouling of mechanism and the glue is gently poured over the sections between the rails etc it sets just fine.
I did make a small mistake on one point where I did not check the geometry of the setting with a spirit level, there was a little 'lean' to one side which I had not spotted, but I let the glue set hard and it seemed to affect just a couple of locos that do not have enough tolerance in their twin bogies. So contact was not being made on one rail as the loco went through the point.
Anyhow I dug out the ballast, also carefully, and reseated the point and then re-glued etc. Everything seems fine now.
 
PhilP said:
What size mesh is the gutter leaf-guard? - I had thought of trying a Filchris recycled plastic ladder construction with a mesh 'base' for the track.. Loose ballasted. This to allow good drainage.
The mesh would have to be fairly fine, reasonable robust, and definitely UV stable.
It's 6mm square mesh. Sounds like you need something more like flyscreen.
 
[quote author=gregh link=topic=301744.msg358071#msg358071 date=1438840769]
It`s 6mm square mesh. Sounds like you need something more like flyscreen.
[/quote]
Thanks Greg..
Yes, 6mm way too big. Not sure could get `fly-screen` over here..
I had wondered about a good quality `weed membrane` fabric, and stapling it to the insides of the ladder-rack?? - I reckon the staples would be the weak point then. They would rust away pretty quickly. Could use a thin strip of the Filcris, and screw through I suppose??

I believe the recycled plastics does not do cutting tools a lot of good. You have to go slowly to avoid building up too much heat as you work it.

In other news:
Ballasting at The Heaths continues..

DSC00891-1.jpg
 
Phil
For the 'screening' that I use inside the bushes and trees to 'catch' the leaves and needles before they settle down on the track, I use plastic, greenhouse heat-screening from a local nursery. The material that I get has holes of about 0.5 mm, but there are other types of weave and hole size available elsewhere. It comes on a roll 1.5m wide and I buy it by the length. It is about £4 a metre.
If you uses an electric staple gun with stainless steel staples, this might be what you are looking for to put on your Filcris ladderwork. You could then use the PVA method to stick the ballast and the screen would also let the water run through easily (if this is for an outside line of course).....just a thought.....
 
Further to my original post `Gravel and Grass` where I mixed cheap water based fence paint with decomposed granite, I`ve now experimented with mixing the paint with ordinary soil. And it works. I used just enough paint to wet the soil so it was really `sticky`. I sprinkled soil over the wet mixture to tone the colour down a bit. I will also try `washing` it with some black oxide mixture, to see the effect.

It`s taken 4 days to `set` but it looks like it will work OK. Looks like a really cheap method as the paint is only about $20 for 4 litres.
Here`s a pic of where I tested it around my cattle yard.
dirt paint.jpg


 
It looks good as well! Couldn't trust it here - even concrete suffers from the continuous pounding rain :(
 
I think the idea is a good one. At the back of my mind I seem to recall a thread on Tuffa? Soil or peat mixed with cement? Nearly everything is at the back of my mind (unretrievable) it might have been on GScale Mad.

I also recall reading that either Australia or the USA made roads using cement and earth but don't know how true it was.

But, whatever, you're a source of inspiration and set me thinking on how I can improve the looks of my line!
 
I use a proprietary concrete fence post mix - set the track in it as desired and sprinkle with a watering can.
A good tip is to use rail clamps where this is done.
Fishplates can quickly develop dry joints where embedded in concrete.
I find I can easily chip off the mix when I modify track layouts

image.jpg
 
AustrianNG said:
I use a proprietary concrete fence post mix - set the track in it as desired and sprinkle with a watering can.
A good tip is to use rail clamps where this is done.
Fishplates can quickly develop dry joints where embedded in concrete.
I find I can easily chip off the mix when I modify track layouts

Paul do you mix any grit or chippings in with with the Postcrete (other brands of fence post mix are available)?
 
I just use it as it comes Gareth. The brand the local merchant sells seems to have. Lot of 3 &. 4 mm grit in it which is ideal

Around the loco sheds I use rattle can brown and black on it.

image.jpg
 
[quote author=gregh link=topic=301744.msg358999#msg358999 date=1439938403]
I`ll be waiting for a good heavy storm here to see how it stands up. But as long as my leaf blower doesn`t blow it away, that`s a start!
[/quote]

We`ve had some rain on it, not torrential, but heavy enough. And it`s still hard. It has developed some nice cracks - maybe not what you UK guys need, but very prototypical for here.
cracked soil s.jpg
 
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