Thinking of going digital

[CoggesRailway]

After seeing Whatlep's set up I have been thinking abou how much more flexible running/playing digital provides however I am a bit sceptical (probably becuase I don't understand it all). Anyway a few questions...

Intial start up costs to incude 3 decoders and control of 5 points - very roughly is fine I have no idea and it's not easy figuring out when you don't kno wwhich bits you need.

Massoth or LGB? What is the difference?

Are LGB currently a going concern with full tech support and future plans for the product? Future usefulness of locos, stock and track is not really effected bu this, but a sophisticated product does need to be supported etc.

I have one digital loco, i ran it in the drizzle and pop. Is this typical- are chipped locos ulitmately less reliable?

Thanks, Ian

PS I know there are various LGB docs on the web but I want people opinions really.

 

[Nemo]

I went digital earlier on this year, best thing I ever did (although not exactly cheap) but I did manage to get some parts second hand and I did have a LGB transformer. It great for playing trains and brillant for sound fitted locos. My set up which works for me is
LGB Transformer 50110
LGB MTS 3, 55006
Massoth Navigator 8134501
Massoth receiver 813301
Chips, use Massoth, sound much better.

The cheaper option is to use the Massoth remote 8134001 but this will need to be connected via a wire to the MTS box, you will not need the reciever then. The navigator can be upgraded at a latter date to wireless when extra cash becomes availble.

 

[whatlep]

After seeing Whatlep's set up I have been thinking abou how much more flexible running/playing digital provides however I am a bit sceptical (probably becuase I don't understand it all). Anyway a few questions...

Intial start up costs to incude 3 decoders and control of 5 points - very roughly is fine I have no idea and it's not easy figuring out when you don't kno wwhich bits you need.

Massoth or LGB? What is the difference?

Are LGB currently a going concern with full tech support and future plans for the product? Future usefulness of locos, stock and track is not really effected bu this, but a sophisticated product does need to be supported etc.

I have one digital loco, i ran it in the drizzle and pop. Is this typical- are chipped locos ulitmately less reliable?

Thanks, Ian

Hi Ian

This is a massive topic. I suggest that if you want an in depth conversation we arrange for you to come over to Ruritania again so I can show some some of the intricacies of DCC, of which LGB's system is only one version.

However, in brief:
The protocols for DCC are defined by the US National Model Railroad Association (NMRA). All the systems currently on the market meet those protocols and can be used interchageably, with some exceptions (due to design) in the case of the LGB central station. Does the latter matter, not in my opinion, but it would take several pages fo detail to explain fully.

What should you choose? Well, Massoth make kit badged for themselves, LGB and - very soon - Piko. The real debate for you is which central station and handset to use and whether to go radio control (the answer is "yes", by the way!). For loco chips, whatever takes your fancy, but I'd recommend Massoth's as cheapest and best. The same goes for point modules. How many modules you need depends on how many points need to operate independently. Each Massoth or LGB point module has four outputs. An output can operate more than one point simultaneously (e.g. for a crossover).

Now, costs. The big advantage of LGB MTS kit is that there is plenty around, so it comes up regularly on the second hand market. You can therefore get a start and upgrade later. For example, Glendale Junction recently had a second hand MTS Type 2 central station available at £90. LGB kit is fully supported by Massoth, by the way and repairs are readily available.

Piko's kit is not on the market yet, but should be before Christmas. Capabilities are not yet known, but the handset is clearly designed to be a slightly reduced specification version of Massoth's handset and the central station to have the LGB kit's output (5 amps), but with Massoth electronic standards, not LGB.

However, let's assume you're buying new today from Dragon G Scale:
Massoth 1200Z - £829.95
Massoth handset - £189.50 (without radio control)
OR
LGB MTS III - £280.95
LGB 55015 Universal Remote - £143.95 (without radio control)

If you go for radio control, the costs look like this:
Massoth 1200Z - £829.95
Massoth handset - £250.00 (r/d fitted)
Massoth radio-control receiver - £99.95
OR
LGB MTS III - £280.95
LGB 55015 Universal Remote - £143.95
LGB 55050 handset transmitter - £75.95
LGB 55055 radio-control receiver - £135.95 (*)

(*) - Receivers can handle the signal from multiple (8) handsets. You will only need 1 per layout in normal circumstances. LGB and Massoth receivers work on different frequencies. Handsets of each supplier will only "talk" to the same supplier's receiver.

Note that these are not "like for like" comparisons, as the Massoth central station can pump out more amps and hence control more trains and the Massoth handset has more functionality, assuming you have the dexterity to use it! Also be aware that the Massoth handset can be used either cabled or radio-control with an LGB Type 3 central station, but not the Type 1 or Type 2 versions. Getting complex, isn't it!

Remember too that you can get the LGB kit much more cheaply than the "new price". Say £100 for a central station and £75 for a universal remote. The other items at perhaps two-thirds of the prices shown. We could juggle numbers and upgrade costs all afternoon - the best thing to do is come over and have a natter!

Decoders - Massoth XL at £55.95 each
Point Module - Massoth 8156001 at £54.00 each

Like I said, we could - probably will - write reams on this, BUT there's no substitute for trying the systems yourself and having a chat. Feel free to give me a call and come over again for a look!

 

[ntpntpntp]

Massoth or LGB?

... or Lenz, or Digitrax, or Zimo, or CT Electronik, or NCE, or ESU, or.... and the list of possibles goes on! Please don't feel you have to limit yourself to Massoth/LGB. Folk on this forum have experience with several different systems.

There's no denying that the Massoth system seems well suited to DCC in the garden, but it's not the cheapest and there are plenty of other DCC systems with their own unique selling points, "better bang for the buck" or whatever. Remember also that it's perfectly possible to pick and choose things like loco decoders and point decoders from the various brands as the signal protocol on the track is set by the NMRA as whatlep has said. You'll find that you'll probably need to keep to one brand of command station & controllers as these components will often use a proprietary protocol to talk to each other.

There have been several similar threads on this sort of topic - might be worth a trawl through the Digital topics. The advice often given is to work out what features you feel you want immediately and what you may want to aim for in the future. Things like:

How many amps do you think you need for simultaneously running trains (include carriage lights, sound etc. in the estimate)
Do you want wireless controllers (seems to be a good idea for garden layouts)
Do you want easy programming of loco decoders
Do you want a computer interface
Do you like to use knobs or buttons to control locos
Cost and features of the various components

Answers to some of those types of questions plus any other specific criteria you have will help to narrow down the candidates. Then actually try and find a shop and some friends who can demo and let you play with various systems to see what you actually get on with before you commit to the outlay.

Me, I run an NCE 10 amp system, the initial start set with one decoder was about £450 I think. I find it very friendly to use, the only drawback is no licenced wireless throttles for the UK. Not such a drawback when our dodgy UK weather means I'm operating from inside my conservatory anyway! Decoders can run from say £25 to £70 depending on power and functions needed - and sound capable decoders are more like £130+. Price of decoders is one area where I think Massoth/LGB are a little excessive although they are good ones. When I see basic LGB decoders for £50 or more I think "I can get the the same power and more functions for half that".

<edit>Excellent details on the LGB/Maassoth stuff from whatlep while I was (slowly) typing my post!</edit>

 

[philkelly]

let's assume you're buying new today from Dragon G Scale:
Massoth 1200Z - £829.95
Massoth handset - £189.50 (without radio control)
OR
LGB MTS III - £280.95
LGB 55015 Universal Remote - £143.95 (without radio control)

That's a very good summary; the LGB MTS Central station also needs a separate transformer (50110), currently c. £134 at Jeremys, but less second hand, and there are other ways of supplying the 18 vDC that the Central Station needs; the Massoth 1200Z has a built in transformer. You don't have to control all your points - you can leave some manual and build up gradually - you'll need a point motor (c. £20) for each one as well as the control box. All recent LGB locos (I think) are DCC equipped already so no extra decoders needed there. If you go down the MTS route, I wouldn't go for anything but a Mark III which will work with Massoth's handset if/when you can upgrade.

 

[whatlep]

let's assume you're buying new today from Dragon G Scale:
Massoth 1200Z - £829.95
Massoth handset - £189.50 (without radio control)
OR
LGB MTS III - £280.95
LGB 55015 Universal Remote - £143.95 (without radio control)

That's a very good summary; the LGB MTS Central station also needs a separate transformer (50110),

Fair point Phil. I'd made an implicit assumption that Ian has a transformer already, but of course you need a stable 5 amp supply to get 5 amps out of the central station. Defnitely worth paying for a good transformer since it's a critical component.

In the first post, I slightly cheekily said that the comparison was not like for like. At the risk of confusing Ian, here's some more detail and a like-for-like comparison, assuming the full 12 amp capacity of the Massoth unit or its LGB equivalents is needed.

Massoth
- 1200Z central station (inc power supply)- £829.95
LGB
- 2 50110 transformers (@£134.95) - £269.90
- 55006 central station - £234.95
- 55090 booster - £195.95
- set insulating joiners - £3.35 (central station track/ booster track are electrically separate)
LGB Total = £704.15

However, with LGB you can acquire items bit by bit as your pocket allows, or get them second hand reasonably easily. This is what I actually paid for my kit when I re-equipped the new Ruritanian Railways in 2008/9

- 2 50110 transformers - £185 (2nd hand ex EBay & GRS, Princes Risborough)
- 55006 central station - £234.95 (new from Dragon!)
- 55090 booster - £90 (EBay)
- insulating joiners already on hand!
Total - £509.95

I could have obtained a 55005 (type 2) central station for £100 at that time which would have made the total £375. That's a big difference compared to the Massoth outlay!

 

[mike]

best go see as meny differnt railway operating systems as possable, buy in hast ,regret in leasure...
me,
mts3
lgb transformer..
2 massoth navagatures
wireless stuff, massoth,
and i prefere /recomend massoth chips..

 

[CoggesRailway]

Hi chaps- really great advice thanks... I have learnt that in the short term the expense is such that I need to decide between the next upgrade to the layout in terms of trackwork and digital kit. At the moment it is just two big loops so in some ways the dcc is not so important. However with the new hilly branch line, station and goods yard I am planning dcc will make functions (playing) much better. So as ever I need both.

This leads to another question - if I was to go ahead an add the trackwork do I have to make allowances for future dcc - or in fact is part of the beauty of it I can just hook up dcc in the future?

on the loco front as I have bought all my LGB secondhand at the cheaper end of the market it is all pre dcc old (prefer vintage i think) stuff. I think however I would not chip all of it anyway.

 

[CoggesRailway]

PS Whatlep is correct I already have an LGB 5amp transformer as well as a controller RC where I just have the loops as an address if that makes sense- so i have some of the kit.

 

[philkelly]

In that case Ian it makes sense to start with an MTS III Central station. If your planned extension has reversing loops, you will need to provide for that - see discussions on this elsewhere on the forum.

 

[whatlep]

This leads to another question - if I was to go ahead an add the trackwork do I have to make allowances for future dcc - or in fact is part of the beauty of it I can just hook up dcc in the future?

No allowances required for DCC. In fact, it's more likely that you'll have to make allowances for DC in the sense that you may want isolating sections for places where you can't reach a loco to use its built-in on/off switch.

I think we've got another DCC convert....

 

[johnw]

Hi

I use the lenz system with the radio control adapter that allows a cordless phone to be used to control the trains. It is economical way of having radio control.

My loco chips are LGB, Lenz, Zimo, ESU, Digitrax.

It suits me, but the choice is yours.

JohnW

 

[3Valve]

Went digital earlier this year. Resisted it for about years but very glad that I did it now. Not as costly as you think if you can find some good 2nd hand kit to get you going. I manged to find a 2nd hand LGB MTS III system from Glendale at a good price.

OK chipping the loco's can be expensive but you dont' have to do them all at once. Only 3 of my loco's are chipped so far and I'll just get around to the rest as and when funds permit.

 

[stockers]

Agree with much of the above. I use LGB MTS3, Massoth navigator (brilliant controller), and massoth sound chips (decoders). Sound is brill with DCC and it was that, that pushed me into it in the first place (and a super secondhand deal).
Also - no need to chip all locos straight away - will have taken me 18months. Little and often.
HINT: keep a look out for replacement locos for those you already have that are ready chipped - then sell your old one and recoup most of the cash. Worked for me with two locos.
Also - LGB motors are quirte happy running non chipped on DCC layouts (not sure you can say that for some other makes though)

 

[CoggesRailway]

Thanks chaps... yes I think I will convert in time... but probably invest in imporving the operational interest (cor I am starting to sound like I know what I'm talking about) first...

 

[Steve]

Happy Birthdays :wave:

 

[Philbahn]

Thanks chaps... yes I think I will convert in time... but probably invest in imporving the operational interest (cor I am starting to sound like I know what I'm talking about) first...

Welcome to the dark side ....

At least it sounds as thogh you know what you want to do and the advantages of Dcc/ Mts.

I have gone MTS 11 then 111 and now massoth z1200