The End - Or Is It ?

[Elmtree Line]

Having seen a few pictures recently of the W&L I have noticed that on many occasions they run their guards van differently to i do, I usually run the open end of the guards van at the very end of the train, but is this correct ?

I know there's windows at both ends...

Advice please

 

[dutchelm]

As the vans don't get turned they go one way with the open end outwards & the other way with it inwards.

 

[vsmith]

As the vans don't get turned they go one way with the open end outwards & the other way with it inwards.

That was what I thought as well, also rewatching the "Titfield Thunderbolt" I noted a few operational things. The line is from fictional Titfield to Mallingford and its downhill most of the way. the morning train would leave Titfield in standard form, engine, coach, goods van, and guards van bringing up the rear, going down grade this would make sense as that would be were maximum usage of the brakes would be needed so it would need to be at the rear of the train, but the evening train, they simply ran the engine back around and coupled to the guards van and ran backwards (cab first) back to titfield, again as it was upgrade and the brake use would be minimal so its position being at the front of the train wouldnt effect train safety. So while direction of guards van platform is irrelevant, its position seams to be more a condition of which way up or down grade the train is heading, just an observation.

I'll soon be building one of these for my tank engine:

 

[The Devonian]

For those who do not remember the traditional brake vans, either because of age or location, I mention that their were varying designs according to which railway they belonged to.

Victors picture shows one of the lovable * GWR Toad vans.

But this thread is specific to the W&L, about which I know little, however being dedicated to the W&L it is most likely that it was rarely turned and used in a specific manner which suited that railways operations. This would fall in line with the post by Tac when he comments on his photographic evidence.

* Unashamed GWR bias.

 

[brianthesnail96]

I'd think it unlikely that in reality the van would be placed at the front of the train by the loco, regardless of predominant upgrades. As well as providing braking on downhills, a brakevan is also used to prevent runaways, if the train was to break in the middle the rear portion could be brought to a controlled halt by the brakevan.

 

[yb281]

The W&L brake van as modelled by Accucraft is the early version with it's open balcony. Both of the brake vans had their balcony's filled in when the line was taken over by the GWR. As a result, there are not an awful lot of photos available in the original condition. I do have one photo of both brakevans in original condition at either end of a timber train and both have their balcony's facing toward Welshpool. However, in these early days there was a triangle included in the trackplan at Welshpool, so it was possible to turn stock - in fact I've also got a photo of The Countess working bunker first toward Llanfair. Very unusual.

But going back to Keith's original question - the W&L couldn't turn stock at Llanfair and if they did turn stock at Welshpool, it doesn't appear to be routine. So the 2 W&L brakevans would have spent 50% of the time running one way and 50% running the other ........ as did the loco's.

 

[Midwalesstokie]

The brake vans on the W&L only faced one way, so for 50% of every journey they would be facing the "wrong" way. There was a temporary triangle available at the Welshpool end so they could be turned but this wasn't done as a matter of course and as far as I'm aware was only done to even out flange wear. Running with the van facing either way therefore will look just as prototypical.
The freight trains on the W&L were all unfitted so the brake van would always be at the rear of the train with the brakes on the wagons pinned down for the descent down the Golfa.
Edit - Mel posted the same thing as I was I was typing!

 

[yb281]

Edit - Mel posted the same thing as I was I was typing!

Great minds think alike mate.

One thing I forgot to mention, the brake vans in their later condition (with the balcony's filled in) look very similar no matter which way they are running (with the two windows in the ends). This may lead people to think that they've been turned from looking at photos of them at the end of a train.

 

[C&S]

(i) Welshpool brakes - didn't they have windows at both ends? If so, it didn't really matter if they were running "the wrong way round". On the standard gauge GWR/Western Region the brake vans were also one-ended and could often be seen the wrong way round. Incidentally the brake wheel was on the open platform of the van. On the W&L it was inside the van, I think, so the Guard must have had to know the route very well as there are some really steep gradients and summits.

(ii) Titfield Thunderbolt was a film so presumably may not have been true to life as far as the rule book went. Was your observation based on the pre-closure line (when being run by BR) or after (when being run by the local vicar etc)? Seeing what else they got up to in the latter period I'd have thought not having a brake van at the tail end on return trips was the least of their problems! Anyway as far as I can remember there was no run round at Titfield, and the line ended at the loco shed just beyond the platform. I believe that the shed was built by the film crew across the track of the real branch line.

There were several articles about making the film in a model magazine some 20 years ago. If anyone's interested I can look them out and quote the source.

 

[vsmith]

(ii) Titfield Thunderbolt was a film so presumably may not have been true to life as far as the rule book went. Was your observation based on the pre-closure line (when being run by BR) or after (when being run by the local vicar etc)? Seeing what else they got up to in the latter period I'd have thought not having a brake van at the tail end on return trips was the least of their problems! Anyway as far as I can remember there was no run round at Titfield, and the line ended at the loco shed just beyond the platform. I believe that the shed was built by the film crew across the track of the real branch line.

There were several articles about making the film in a model magazine some 20 years ago. If anyone's interested I can look them out and quote the source.

See for yourself, its the opening scene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pRrTlOZyqM

Makes sense if theirs no wye (traingle) at Mallingford to just run the end and couple to the van. This is supposed be pre-closure. but the line was already closed when they filmed it so the filmmakers might have taken some liberties, but it still makes sense.

this is interesting, Titfield then and now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWlbZnBPtOM&feature=related

 

[yb281]

(i) Welshpool brakes - didn't they have windows at both ends? If so, it didn't really matter if they were running "the wrong way round".

Yes both with a balcony and in their re-built condition as mentioned in post #9.

 

[vasim]

I'd think it unlikely that in reality the van would be placed at the front of the train by the loco, regardless of predominant upgrades. As well as providing braking on downhills, a brakevan is also used to prevent runaways, if the train was to break in the middle the rear portion could be brought to a controlled halt by the brakevan.

BTS96 is correct. On non braked or partially braked trains, the brake van is ALWAYS at the rear in case the train becomes divided into two or more portions, the runaway wagons can be contained within the train and/or the rear portion can be brought safely to a stand. The brake van can also be used to rub the brake thus keeping the couplings tight on downhill grades preventing a snatch in the dip before a following uphill grade which could break the train.
On fully brake fitted trains, as long as the brake van is also fitted or has a through pipe, it can be marshalled anywhere.

 

[vsmith]

I'd think it unlikely that in reality the van would be placed at the front of the train by the loco, regardless of predominant upgrades. As well as providing braking on downhills, a brakevan is also used to prevent runaways, if the train was to break in the middle the rear portion could be brought to a controlled halt by the brakevan.

BTS96 is correct. On non braked or partially braked trains, the brake van is ALWAYS at the rear in case the train becomes divided into two or more portions, the runaway wagons can be contained within the train and/or the rear portion can be brought safely to a stand. The brake van can also be used to rub the brake thus keeping the couplings tight on downhill grades preventing a snatch in the dip before a following uphill grade which could break the train.
On fully brake fitted trains, as long as the brake van is also fitted or has a through pipe, it can be marshalled anywhere.

So then the movie shows an incorrect arraingment? noted.... be a little bit of shunting to get the proper arraingment at either end of the line.