Small Flanges and G Scale Track

musket the dog

musket the dog

Registered
Evening all,

I'm looking for a little bit of advice regarding wheels, specifically locomotive wheels.

I'm currently fleshing out the plan for my next scratch built locomotive and I have come to the ever tricky, and often expensive, problem of what said locomotive will roll on. Been through a few of the ready to run motor blocks and can't really find anything would suit what I have in my head.

So I've begun looking into wheel individual wheel sets and making up my own chassis. My concern is that the vast majority of wheels suitable for something in 'G' scale are in fact profiled to suit finer 16mm track. So in the vast experience of the members of this forum, will I be creating myself unnecessary problems by starting with the 'wrong' wheels?

I know there is often some trouble with the fine flanges and G pointwork, but there are enough people on here running Roundhouse, Accucraft (which I assume use the smaller 16mm flangers) and the likes, so I guess it can't be all bad, all of the time?

Many thanks for your thoughts,
Ricky
 
You just need level track Ricky. A firm base will help a lot.
 
musket the dog said:
Evening all,

I'm looking for a little bit of advice regarding wheels, specifically locomotive wheels.

I'm currently fleshing out the plan for my next scratch built locomotive and I have come to the ever tricky, and often expensive, problem of what said locomotive will roll on. Been through a few of the ready to run motor blocks and can't really find anything would suit what I have in my head.

So I've begun looking into wheel individual wheel sets and making up my own chassis. My concern is that the vast majority of wheels suitable for something in 'G' scale are in fact profiled to suit finer 16mm track. So in the vast experience of the members of this forum, will I be creating myself unnecessary problems by starting with the 'wrong' wheels?

I know there is often some trouble with the fine flanges and G pointwork, but there are enough people on here running Roundhouse, Accucraft (which I assume use the smaller 16mm flangers) and the likes, so I guess it can't be all bad, all of the time?

Many thanks for your thoughts,
Ricky
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Ricky, the alleged problems are largely hot air.

I run a variety of wheels, including Slaters' on a scracthbuilt 2-6-2 chassis, and I have some of the worst laid track going.

LGB flange depth is really to assist with R1/R2 curvature (which, even in model railway terms is still very tight). Once you get to 8 foot diameter, most things, and most G scale / 45mm gauge wheels will go round and stay on the track. If your track is laid to reasonable line and level, you'll be OK.
 
I was always of the belief that the deep flanges on LGB was to work with their flange-bearing frogs. I studied turnouts/switches a lot when I was starting out to understand how they worked, how the guard rails and wing rails work.

Some early switches had frog geometry (not LGB) such that the wheels actually drop into the frog a bit. The flange-bearing frogs in LGB switches allow very wide wing and guard rails, since you don't depend on the wing rails to support the wheel through the frog.

It actually all works well when you have consistent flange sizes, although not very prototype (yes I know there are some flange bearing frogs in the prototype)

It's a very complex subject, and it took me some time to put all the pieces together.

Greg

p.s. I thought you guys over there would all be endorsing the G1MRA specs?
 
The problem with that Greg is that LGB have reduced the size of their flanges over the years, they are smaller now than originally. That would muck up the flange bearing.
 
Ricky,
I've been using LGB track on my very small layout, and my Accucraft Dora, my Mamod Brunel and Bachmann Lyn have no problems with the track, even with the tight curves.:)
 
The big issue for the scratchbuilder is the availability of wheels.

If you're looking for spoked wheels, apart from butchering a ready-made model, there's only really Slaters. Good wheels, been around the industry for ages, and run quite happily on LGB, Aristo, USAT track, and I would therefore anticipate to be OK on Piko, Trainline and Accucraft.

If you're looking at solid wheels, then the various small manufacturers' offerings in our scale will easily be OK on all G scale track.

The big drawback of a scratchbuilt chassis is that it is inflexible, and thus it will not always have all of its wheel treads touching the rail head at once, and this can reduce tractive effort. It doesn't cause enough of a problem to encourage derailment, it means the loco doesn't quite pull like a Rugens :shake::shake::shake:

This loco has a scratchbuilt chassis, Slater's driving wheels and LGB pony truck wheels - I believe the tender is on USAT wheels.

PICT0002.JPG
 
Thank you for all the feedback chaps, definitely have a little more confidence to be a little more adventurous with my sources now. Been looking around a few places and I think I've got a plan sussed. I'll be sure to keep the results posted up on the forum :)
 
Rhinochugger said:
The big drawback of a scratchbuilt chassis is that it is inflexible, and thus it will not always have all of its wheel treads touching the rail head at once, and this can reduce tractive effort. It doesn't cause enough of a problem to encourage derailment, it means the loco doesn't quite pull like a Rugens :shake::shake::shake:

This loco has a scratchbuilt chassis, Slater's driving wheels and LGB pony truck wheels - I believe the tender is on USAT wheels.

View attachment 228088
Click to expand...

I had had similar thoughts but I think I have a solution. I'm only looking to make a 2-4-0 with quite a small wheelbase. One of the best tracking locos I own is a small scratchbuilt tank perched on top of an Aristocraft 0-4-0 steam chassis. The front axle is free to rock around it's centreline, meaning all 4 wheels are always in contact. I've found it to be as reliable and as powerful as my LGB Stainz without skates or a traction tyre.

My plan for the chassis was to 3D print a motor block, allowing me to use the aristo method of compensation, and build cosmetic frames from brass or plasticard around it. Hopefully that way I would get the driving wheels to set properly, assuming I build the pont truck properly.
 
musket the dog said:
I had had similar thoughts but I think I have a solution. I'm only looking to make a 2-4-0 with quite a small wheelbase. One of the best tracking locos I own is a small scratchbuilt tank perched on top of an Aristocraft 0-4-0 steam chassis. The front axle is free to rock around it's centreline, meaning all 4 wheels are always in contact. I've found it to be as reliable and as powerful as my LGB Stainz without skates or a traction tyre.

My plan for the chassis was to 3D print a motor block, allowing me to use the aristo method of compensation, and build cosmetic frames from brass or plasticard around it. Hopefully that way I would get the driving wheels to set properly, assuming I build the pont truck properly.
Click to expand...

The only problem I had with the couple of locomotives that I acquired with "Scale" wheels was the Check Rail or Guard rail on switches. My solution was:
Glueless Checkrail 2

Glueless Checkrail 2

  • Media owner Hutch
  • Date added
Glueless Checkrail01

Glueless Checkrail01

  • Media owner Hutch
  • Date added

It also let me use some 1 gauge metal rolling stock wheels that I had put on the shelf as a "non-working" solution.

Different folks have different experiences.
 
Greg Elmassian said:
I was always of the belief that the deep flanges on LGB was to work with their flange-bearing frogs. I studied turnouts/switches a lot when I was starting out to understand how they worked, how the guard rails and wing rails work.

Some early switches had frog geometry (not LGB) such that the wheels actually drop into the frog a bit. The flange-bearing frogs in LGB switches allow very wide wing and guard rails, since you don't depend on the wing rails to support the wheel through the frog.

It actually all works well when you have consistent flange sizes, although not very prototype (yes I know there are some flange bearing frogs in the prototype)

It's a very complex subject, and it took me some time to put all the pieces together.

Greg

p.s. I thought you guys over there would all be endorsing the G1MRA specs?
Click to expand...
G1MRA specs? They must have passed me by. The CFR has been at its present location for 19 years, most of the track is LGB with a little Peco and Tenmille. The locomotives that have used the track over those years has been a mixture of propriety ready to run, kit built, scratch built and modified. None of them have had a problem with the track and LGB point work.
 
casey jones snr said:
G1MRA specs? They must have passed me by. The CFR has been at its present location for 19 years, most of the track is LGB with a little Peco and Tenmille. The locomotives that have used the track over those years has been a mixture of propriety ready to run, kit built, scratch built and modified. None of them have had a problem with the track and LGB point work.
Click to expand...


Just a heads-up that Peco points can be problematic if you're using track power and locos (such as Piko and LGB) that are fitted with pickup skates - the skates can cause shorts on the Peco pointwork. Of course if you're running battery power with dead rails then this doesn't matter anyway......

Jon.
 
Zerogee said:
Just a heads-up that Peco points can be problematic if you're using track power and locos (such as Piko and LGB) that are fitted with pickup skates - the skates can cause shorts on the Peco pointwork. Of course if you're running battery power with dead rails then this doesn't matter anyway......

Jon.
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I have converted all my Peco to live frogs killing that problem. Howevet I do have a problamatical LGB R3 point and a difficult Train Line Curved one both of which short out with LGB Skates. The problem on both of them has been resolved with a short piece of Insulation tape.

musket the dog said:
Thank you for all the feedback chaps, definitely have a little more confidence to be a little more adventurous with my sources now. Been looking around a few places and I think I've got a plan sussed. I'll be sure to keep the results posted up on the forum :)
Click to expand...
Another though for wheels is to get Castings that can be turned to LGB standards. Walsall do a good range:-

https://www.walsallmodelindustries.co.uk

Though will need to do some fancy Engineering to make them Insulated.

JonD
 
casey jones snr said:
G1MRA specs? They must have passed me by. The CFR has been at its present location for 19 years, most of the track is LGB with a little Peco and Tenmille. The locomotives that have used the track over those years has been a mixture of propriety ready to run, kit built, scratch built and modified. None of them have had a problem with the track and LGB point work.
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No point worrying about G1MRA spec if the manufacturers ignore it :tmi::tmi:
 
So......

IF I borrow a 'G1' loco and stock..... Will it run round our outer loop of LGB track?
 
Possibly. The frogs are usually the main problem - and the radius of curvature.
 
My pair of Korean-built brass Dingler Ts3 locos have quite fine flanges compared with LGB, and they seem to run happily on all the tracks (code 332 and some Peco 250) that I've taken them to visit - R3, and possibly R2 curves shouldn't be too much of a problem anyway, because they are only 0-6-0s, though I wouldn't like to try them on R1 as the centre axle doesn't have a great deal of independent movement.


The DR black version:
Dingler DR 99-121.jpg



....and the Landerbahn (Wurttemburg) green liveried version, posing alongside my LGB Heidi....

Ts3 & Heidi side.jpg

In both of those pics, you can see the fineness of the wheel flanges (clearer on the DR one of course, but also just about visible on the rearmost driver on the green version). Despite this, I've not encountered any derailing problems or trouble on points so far.

Jon.
 
Yes, the question was about building a loco, and fine flanges were specifically asked about.

I would wager you don't have any really "fine" or approaching scale flanges.

So I would expect your stuff to work fine on your track.

But, it does not address the question in the original post, which is what I was kind of referencing. Here in the US also, many people never look at or use the standards and they are also usually quite happy too.

I was more questioning why the G1MRA standards do not seem to ever be referenced in the forum, or by this specific question.

Regards, Greg



casey jones snr said:
G1MRA specs? They must have passed me by. The CFR has been at its present location for 19 years, most of the track is LGB with a little Peco and Tenmille. The locomotives that have used the track over those years has been a mixture of propriety ready to run, kit built, scratch built and modified. None of them have had a problem with the track and LGB point work.
Click to expand...
 
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