Quick answer needed.... battery question

CoggesRailway

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Working on this right now.... I am experimenting with manual speed control. It actually seems that a rotary switch that incrementally adds cells makes a suprising smooth solution with nothing getting hot. However the end of a running session is likely the cells will be at different levels of charge.

The key question is if i parralell charge the cells from one charger at the end of the day will one "fill" first, and the other continue charging untill they are all charged OR does it not work that way??
 

dutchelm

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Sorry but it doesn't work that way. If the cells are parallelled the full cells will feed into the discharged cells, possibly at a very high current, just like a short circuit across the cells!
 

whatlep

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Agree with Dutchelm.
 

CoggesRailway

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poop
 

CoggesRailway

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Thanks chaps..... hmmmmm
I might be abit backwards on this electrickery stuff, but at least I was smart enough to ask I guess. Better than a burnt down garage. I googled it and found pictures of burnt stuff so you gurus are correct.
 

gregh

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CoggesRailway said:
Working on this right now.... I am experimenting with manual speed control. It actually seems that a rotary switch that incrementally adds cells makes a suprising smooth solution with nothing getting hot. However the end of a running session is likely the cells will be at different levels of charge.

The key question is if i parralell charge the cells from one charger at the end of the day will one "fill" first, and the other continue charging untill they are all charged OR does it not work that way??

Sorry, but I'll have to disagree with the other respondants who don't like this idea.
Just to sure I understand you, you're running a number of NiMH cells in series to give a stepped voltage control, but when you charge you propose to somehow reconnect them all in parallel so you have a very large 1.2 V battery and use a 'one cell' charger? (I'm guessing you take the cells out of the 'series' holder in the loco and put in another 'parallel' holder)
If so I don't think there is a problem at all.
I do this whenever I buy new NiMH cells to make sure they are all equalized and when I 'grab' some cells out of my pile to make up a new battery. I do it with no charger connected for a few hours to let the voltages equalize, before I connect them in series and charge. (Mine are permanently connected in series in the loco)

It's not like a short circuit unless one of the cells is really dead. Even then it's only 1.2V driving the current, not like when you short circuit a 10 or 12 cell battery.
Assuming some cells are low charge and some are high charge, the difference in cell voltage is less than 0.2V so there is not a lot of voltage to 'drive' a large current from one cell to another. And the voltage of a discharged cell very quickly increases when you put a little current in, so a 'large' current (maybe 10 amps) would only flow for a few seconds anyway.
I'm glad you realised the problem of tapping cells of the battery for speed control does have its problems with charging, but you do have the right solution.
 

rjstott

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I have to agree with the majority here. Nimh cells have an internal resistance below 0.2 ohms, charged or uncharged! This will produce at least FIVE amps and FIVE watts of heat, which is going to get hot. I think this is dangerous and likely to lead to a cell rupturing. If you must parallel charge then you need a resistor in series with each cell to limit the current.

Richard
 

Westcott

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I would have thought that 0.2 V across 0.2 ohms was 1 Amp?
Well within any battery's capabilities?
Gregh does it without problems.
The only downside, as Gregh says, is making the series switched circuit and the parallel charger.
 

gregh

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Nothing like a test to convince (I hope). All cells are 2000 or 2200 mAh.
I fished an old NiCd cell out of the garbage I had just thrown out as 'had it' Completely discharged measured 1.127V open circuit, but I was game enough to short circuit it for a few seconds, and guess what - 200 mA current - Just to confirm it was really discharged. Then measured at 1.110 V. open circuit
Then I connected 3 NiMH charged cells in parallel with open circuit voltage of 1.268V and connected the one bad cell in parallel with them. How much current flowed into the discharged cell? Just 60 mA. Just shows really 'dead' cells have a pretty high internal resistance.

Another test - 3 NiMH cells just off the charger yesterday ( 1.324V) and one that had been sitting around for a few weeks since charge (1.110V). THis would be pretty typical of your situation. Current into discharged cell = 200 mA.
Not likely to cause a problem!
 

stockers

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I used to import battery powered toys. The regulations are quite specific. The user must be advised not to mix used and new batteries because of the risk of high currents and fire.
 

rjstott

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Final warning, unless you are really careful then this can happen

http://www.gscalecentral.net/m169276 Richard
 

Rhinochugger

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The best manual speed controller that I've come across is from Cambrian models.

Available ready made or in kit form :clap::clap::clap:

Speed is contolled on this chappy by turning the exhaust pipe

b8a481aba2dc4e8f9c8a353a9f581a88.jpg
 

stockers

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Here is a little experiment for you. Its not totally safe so take care.
Get a new AA battery and one of those giant paper clips. Open the paper clip so it is a tight fit on both ends of the battery (a little clip isn't big enough to make good contact to carry the current available). The battery is now rapidly discharging and might just possibly explode (unlikely, but I warned you). It gets too hot to hold. You can pick it up but you wont keep it in your hand for more than a few seconds.
It just shows what power there is in there.
 

whatlep

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stockers said:
Here is a little experiment for you. Its not totally safe so take care.
Get a new AA battery and one of those giant paper clips. Open the paper clip so it is a tight fit on both ends of the battery (a little clip isn't big enough to make good contact to carry the current available). The battery is now rapidly discharging and might just possibly explode (unlikely, but I warned you). It gets too hot to hold. You can pick it up but you wont keep it in your hand for more than a few seconds.
It just shows what power there is in there.
Don't try that with a rechargeable cell of any sort, especially Li-ion. Their potential energy is MUCH higher and the probability of fire and or chemical discharge is very high.
 

whatlep

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coyote97

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Hi there you guys,

just let me drop some thoughts out of a somehow electrical educated mind:
To get current flow, we need a circuit, including at least a source and a "user" of any kind.
Thats an easy case to measure, calculate and getting thoughts on, because there are easy rules for that.

If u have branched circuits, things are starting to get more difficult. its not any more that easy to tell how much voltage is on where and what current flows in what branch. But with some excercise, man would make it.

Really difficult is, when in a circuit (or even an branched circuit) there are 2 or more sources in use.
Ohh....its very easy when all of them are in a line......then we have just an addition of voltages and a factor of flow. Thats how battery use works.

But having sources parallel, it will get really wild.
U get undefineable flows of all directions (surely.....theoretical neutral wires will hold flows with every tolerance u have in your circuit). That can damage electronical parts.
For using or loading accus, its completely wrong. The accus will never reach a 100% load. Maybe, as long as u use good ones, it may work for some loads....to get...say 95%.
Later, when used and loaded for some times, the inner resistance (that is EVER dynamical, not static and NOT to be measured with a multimeter) will change and get different. It will tell what current flows, because the voltage is fixed. So the older the accus get, the more they will be charged differently.
U will have to use a balanced source, because when good accus get to be fully loaded, the current in the circuit goes down while voltage goes up and bad accus will be loaded with too much current, what will make them hot and probably damage them.

In use, paralleled accus or batterys wont give the performance they could. Getting them on duty will lead to different inner resistances what will cause a voltage drop. Bad accus will take current, while the good ones have to do the work AND give current to the bad ones.
Batterys are not for to be recharged, so that may be dangerous.

Paralleld accus in use will get empty just by letting them together. It leads to permanent charge/dischargements amongst the cells, every flow with resistance and loss: What shall it be good for?

To have accus in a way to work, us them in a line (as it normally is).

They will be floated with just ONE current, that is a summary of all resitances of the cells. Different resistances lead to different voltages over different cells. That gives optimal charge to each cell. Damaged cells are "shut downs", what makes this case more safe: the complete voltage will NEVER be on a damaged cell, others can hold down the "short circuit" just by beeing a bit "overduty", while, in the other case of a breakdown, the whole circuit is broken and all cells are safe from beeing damaged.

Summary:
Parallel loading/operation only works while all cells are fit and nearly on the same techincal data. They will get empty while letting them together. Its a bit dangerous when a cell is damaged.

Noone will use it. When u need to have a bigger capacity, use cells with bigger capacity OR use a switch to use smaller cells one after the other (btw: THAT way u can charge them: with a mutliswitch, one after the other)
but NEVER use or charge accus or cells parallel.

There are chargers that SEEM to load the cells parallel, but they have electronical leveling on each charging-place so every cell is charged seperately. Dont get this mixed up.

Greetings

Frank
 

spoz

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Guys,

It may be a little off subject, but diesel electric submarines use their batteries in the way CoggesRail is describing all the time. Foe minimum power, maximum endurance they run with all their cells in parallel; for max power (speed) and min endurance the batteries are in series; and there are combinations of sections in parallel and series to give intermediate powers (known as "group down" and "group up"). Then, when the submarine snorts and uses its diesels to charge its batteries, this is done by sections (groups) of batteries in parallel.

Steve
 

spike

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coyote97 said:
Hi there you guys,

just let me drop some thoughts out of a somehow electrical educated mind:
To get current flow, we need a circuit, including at least a source and a "user" of any kind.
Thats an easy case to measure, calculate and getting thoughts on, because there are easy rules for that.

If u have branched circuits, things are starting to get more difficult. its not any more that easy to tell how much voltage is on where and what current flows in what branch. But with some excercise, man would make it.

Really difficult is, when in a circuit (or even an branched circuit) there are 2 or more sources in use.
Ohh....its very easy when all of them are in a line......then we have just an addition of voltages and a factor of flow. Thats how battery use works.
Frank

Hi Frank.
These circuits can be worked out relatively easily by using Kirchoff's Laws.
You will need to know how to use simultaneous equations though.

[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Kirchoff's 1st Law.[/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Kirchoffs Current Law is "total current entering a junction is equal to the current leaving the junction , as no charge is lost within the junction". [/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]The algebraic sum of all the currents entering and leaving a junction must be equal to zero.[/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]This is known as the Conservation of Charge.[/font]

Kirchoff's 2nd Law
Kirchoffs Voltage Law , is "in any closed loop network, the total voltage around the loop is equal to the sum of all the voltage drops within the same loop" which is also equal to zero.
The algebraic sum of all voltages within the loop must be equal to zero.
This is known as the Conservation of Energy.