PIKO juddering forward a millimetre at a time -help!

[Chris Wright]

Hi everyone, you were all so quick on my last question. Hope you can help this time.
I used to model N gauge then switched to HO European. Now in the process of finishing a Show Z gauge layout but after the December floods flooded us out with our garden long gone we had a clean piece of paper to start again with. I have always admired G scale and this was my chance to do something about it. Accordingly I bought 200 foot of brass PIKO track and two second hand locos. One was an LGB 2061 and the other was a PIKO 218 ref 37500. The PIKO one appeared almost brand new and worked perfectly for about an hour in DC with the PIKO controller. It then stopped but then started to judder forward a fraction at a time.

I have polished the wheels, checked the electrical connections and the gearbox is well greased etc.. Nothing appeared to help. I then isolated the electrics to each motorised bogie, again did not resolve it. To do something different I connected the accessory side of the controller which is 16volts direct to the pickups and low and behold it spun up the wheels. Back to the 22volt side and no change juddering forward at a few millimetres at a time. I tried the controller with the LGB 2061 loco and it whizzed away, no problem. I also have the ICE 3 set and that performed OK so it really boils down to the loco. My intention is to convert to DCC but rather than waste an expensive decoder does anyone have any ideas about what may be happening please.

 

[Zerogee]

Hopefully others will pop up soon with some more useful answers, as I don't really have one - but one thing in your post did catch my eye - you mentioned that the gearboxes were "well greased" - I hope not TOO well, because I know of at least one person who had two ruined motors on a new Piko 218 because the gearboxes had been OVER-greased at the factory..... they really don't need very much, just a thin coating on the gears, and more than this can be very counter-productive - if yours has a lot of grease in there then I would carefully remove all but a little of it - generally less is better than more in this case!

Jon.

 

[ntpntpntp]

Sounds like a short or other over-current situation causing the controller to cut out? Do the lights go out at the time? Does this happen with any speed setting on the controller, even the slowest?

 

[Chris Wright]

Sounds like a short or other over-current situation causing the controller to cut out? Do the lights go out at the time? Does this happen with any speed setting on the controller, even the slowest?

Yes the gearbox only has a smear of grease.

The lights do go out and before it went bump anything over half throttle and it stopped. However, why do the LGB ones work perfectly. This is what I do jot understand aspecially as the controller was new and is also a PIKO!!

 

[ntpntpntp]

Yes, definitely sounding like the 218 is drawing too much current for the controller, either because it has a fault or the loco is just too much for the controller. What amp rating is the controller? Have you tried leaving things off for a few minutes then trying again - does it run for a while then stop?

Don't forget the Piko 218 is a two motor loco, the LGB is just a small shunter. I would imagine quite a difference in current draw.

 

[Chris Wright]

Lije I said it is a PIKO controller so why does everything else work and not this? Left it a full day and tried it, no such luck. Don't want to scrap it if it is something simple.

 

[ntpntpntp]

Yes but which Piko controller is it? I can see two on their shop: 35002 is rated for 5 amps, 35006 is rated for 1.6 amps.

Either should be fine, so I'm thinking the loco has a fault. Needs running on a rolling road with a power supply and a meter to check the current draw.

 

[Chris Wright]

It is the 1.6 amp one.

This was my view but which part? Sending this back to PIKO out of warranty, shipping both ways and the repair, especially as I doubt they would spend investigative time on it and just slot two motors in is going to cost more I am sure than another newer loco instead!

 

[James Day]

Chris,

Is the controller that you are using the only controller you have? I would like to know if the loco works fat all from another controller. Maybe you could try it on the tracks of or with a controller of someone else?

The other approach is to try seperating the PIKO loco into seperate sections say the two bogies and the rest. The try each section in turn with the controller and see which bits work and which don't.

Not sure what the innards of your loco is like, but a good place to start is the mother board. Try to work out which connections are from the pick ups and wheels and which are to the motor. A loose motor connection from the board could give this effect.

I acquired a little used LGB tram that did this. It worked for a while and then began stutturing, as the motor was making poor contact with the appropriate contact pin.

Try powering up the two motors and then perhaps the lights from the connections. (Assuming that the lights run on track voltage of course!) My guess, given the sudden switch from working to not working that it is something like a connection has become problemtic in some way.

Let us know how you get on.

James

 

[Chris Wright]

This is a quick video of it working yesterday before it fell over.

 

[Cliff George]

In your first post you say that you isolated each motor in your 218. Does that mean you disconnected one motor ran the 218 with had the same stopping feature, then repeated with the other motor again with the same feature? If so possibly an issue with the main electronics in the engine. Do you have an ammeter to measure what current is being drawn in all cases? Do you have another controller you can try?

 

[Chris Wright]

Thanks James

 

[Chris Wright]

Yes, tried each motor in isolation. There does not appear to be a controller board and the light stutter in unison with the motor. I do not have another controller as this was suppised to be a testing situation whilst I convert to DCC but I do have an old Baccmann DC controller I could try at 14 volts and 1 amp.

 

[ntpntpntp]

Cliff is right it may be something on the main board. You'd need to prove that by running each bogie in isolation and then via the main board. I don't know this model so don't know how easy it is to drop out a bogie and run it on it's own.

Shame you're not near me I'd be happy to take a look, but maybe there is a member near you who can help?

 

[Chris Wright]

Penrith, Cumbria 1 mile from Jct 40

 

[pugwash]

It is the 1.6 amp one.

Definitely not big enough. I had a Piko BR218 and even 2.5 amp controllers wern't beefy enough, (I initially tried with the smaller controllers and had the same effect as you) I bought a 5.0 amp controller for my main line (I also had an LGB Nicki & Franck S twin motored loco - same problem) and they ran perfectly on 5.0A but not at all on 2.5A or less. These were Gaugemaster controllers I bought, I can thoroughly recommmend them although others here will say they are rubbish, but hell - they worked perfectly on my layout.
I did a test by putting one of the 2.5A controllers on the main line, for both of the aforementioned locos they ran well for a few minutes then started the jerky movement, inside the shed I could hear the trip clicking on and off as the controller overheated.
If you possibly can, get hold of a 5.0A controller for a day and give it a try - easier than dismantling the loco or sending it back to Piko.
All the best

 

[Zerogee]

Top Slots'n'Trains are very good for Piko, very competitive pricing:
http://www.topslotsntrains.com/topslotsntrains/manufacturers_final.asp?manufacturer='PIKO G Scale'
You would need the 100VA power unit as well as the 5amp throttle unit, but if you then decided to go DCC with Piko's equipment (which seems to be generally liked by people now, despite a few early niggles when first introduced) you would be able to use the same 100VA power supply to run their DCC central station (and you could probably re-sell the 5 amp analogue throttle when you no longer need it).
Perhaps relegate the 1.6 amp throttle and power supply to a bench-testing setup for your workshop? I use a little 1 amp LGB unit for that purpose myself, and when running on test rollers I find that can handle even a two-motor LGB loco or a single-motor Piko - but it probably wouldn't have enough oomph for a Piko twin-motor except for very short durations at low speeds. It's commonly accepted that the motors Piko use (especially in their earlier models) are more amp-hungry than LGB's Buhler 7-pole type.

Jon.

 

[Chris Wright]

I will be using my Z21 system with boost station. I can control voltage from the app on the iPad.

Now your comment about hungry early PIKO motors is news and part of a learning curve for this scale and explains why the LGB stuff works but PIKO twin motor does not. Thanks for that. It seems I should stick with LGB. I have the additional motor coming for the rear drive car on the LGB ICE 3 set so will see how this works to see twin LGB motors.

I also have a fan cooled PSU that I can feed up to 50 volts or 8 amps so may try this to see if it kicks the motor up. If all works OK this will then go eBay to get rid.

 

[Chris Wright]

OK all. I wired up a stabalized PSU at 16 v and 2amp. Both bogies roared into life! So same PSU connected to PIKO controller and it worked perfect. So it seems the PIKO PSU is at fault but only shows under full load drawn from two motors.

As I had the loco stripped down I wired in a Lokpilot decoder I have used for an HO loco. I set the Z21 on the iPad to 16volts and away it went, behaved perfectly, even in 'crawl' mode F6. This does many things. It firstly gives me confidence I can fit a bigger decoder into the loco; the Z21 system works just fine and lastly the DCC Bachmann reverse loop boxes that have just arrives from the US will also be money well spent as they will save track and run under DCC.

Thanks for everyone's input. Much appreciated.