Pico 'Ludmilla' BR 132 locomotive scale distortion?

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Trainman 864

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I've been wanting to get one of these iconic Russian locomotives since the Pico G scale model became available last year, so I went along to my local model shop to have a closer look.

It soon became apparent that something didn't look quite right - it just looked too 'dumpy'. I know it's a big loco, but I think the full size one has a certain elegance about it, despite some people finding it ugly in their eyes.

So I tried to check the scale however, just as with LGB, this is not so easy and I haven't had much luck in finding drawings for either the prototype, or the model. As far as I can tell the model scales at around 1/29 in length and 1/24 in height.

I did compare the Piko model (37580) with the Minitrix (12589) smaller version and it appears that the distance between the bogies and the air tanks is almost the same on the Piko, whereas on the Minitrix it's more than twice the distance.

So I would like to ask two questions ....

- Where would the best place be to look for dimensioned drawings? as it might just be possible to alter the model if the discrepancy is confined to one location.

- Is it model manufactures general practice to 'tinker' with scales to minimise the neccessary radius for track curves? I know they've been doing it for a long time with coaches, but I didn't realise they might be doing it with loco's.

Many thanks!
 
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Hi John,

Can't help you with a source for dimensioned drawings but can confirm to you that in G-scale it is general practice to "tinker" with scales with some of the larger locos that are being produced these days.

If you want scale-length models you would have to go for Gauge 1 but then you would need very large curves on your layout as well as a lot of cash to buy the rolling stock. Marklin do some Gauge 1 stuff - have a look at the and compare the prices with G-scale stuff.

I've got the Piko BR 132 and don't think it looks that out of place:

DR-Ludmilla-14.jpg

DR-Ludmilla-06.jpg

.... and then you have this year's DR 118:

DR-BR-118-02.jpg

LGB have been using the "rubber ruler" for many years but again in the context of the radius curves we use my feeling is that it "looks" right. Hate to think what a scale-accurate Amtrak train would look.... and I've got quite large radii curves on my layout:

AMTRAK#60-01.jpg
 
I think if you are looking for true scale modelling with off the shelf PIKO or LGB models you will be frustrated. Most models are compromised in many ways, partly because of the "it must run on R1 curves" rule (which I think is a good thing) and partly because there are different scales of models around that will run on 45mm gauge track, and many people like to run an unprototypical mix of trains without them looking too silly together. Not to mention the ability to couple together using standard LGB hook and loop couplings which dictates the bogie height and distance from the end of the loco.

Most people live with the compromises as long as it "looks right" from a metre or so away. Many of us Brits lived with OO (1:76) models on HO (1:87) track in our early modelling days, which is a big difference but in the main accepted in return for a wider range of brands and models.

In your case you have a standard gauge loco. To be true scale it should be scale 1 or 1:32 scale. PIKO seem to have averaged out at about 1:29 for their standard gauge models, I don't know why.

To return to your request, I had a quick look for some scale drawings. Not much success but there seems to be some drawings on pinterest but I am not signed up to that service. I believe it is free.

Hope all this rambling helps.
 
So far as I can tell the USA Trains locos are dimensionally correct for 1:29 scale including length. Whilst 1:29 is about 10% too big for 45mm track (which is closer than OO) the locos are correctly proportioned.

I had planned to go a little European and buy the Piko TEE when it was announced. When I saw the model the proportions just looked so wrong that I completely lost interest in it. Having said that I think the Piko 132 looks ok in the photos above. The important thing is that the loco must look right in the eyes of the owner.
 
As Keith has shown in his pictures the 132 looks good with the Piko East European coaches. Where things go wrong is with Narrow Gauge Stock that has single buffers etc. Keith does the right thing keeping the correct kind of stock with his appropriate locomotives which is fine if you like to watch trains in your garden. I had a couple of the LGB Sachen Meyers at one time and they never looked right to my eyes, the prototype is a pretty small locomotive. Here with 760mm stock it looks fine but of it were next to Metre Gauge Stock it would be a very different story. image.jpeg This is where the LGB and others rubber ruler kicks in and adapts things so that everything matches well. Ok if you are not too picky and I do get away with using some 760mm stock on my metre gauge representation. I even have a Piko 118 that I have modified to look a bit like the ones on the Septemvri line with a single centre buffer as well. But it never gets used as I have now moved on from mixing locomotives mostly, hence the reason my 2 Sachens got sold on. Having said that in my line they stood in for Harz Malletts until the Train Line ones became available. Now all is pretty much Metre Gauge bliss! But that is me I am afraid.
JonD
 
Many thanks for the replies guys - I agree that the 132 does looks good in Kieth's pictures, although that could be due in part to the eye being distracted by the fantastic setting in which they were taken .... :)

I understand the commercial need to make the model shorter than the prototype, so I went back to the shop and had another look. My conclusion was that it did look just about acceptable when viewed from any kind of an angle - the problem for me, comes when viewing it from broadside on. It really does appear to have lost the 'character' of the original.

I did a few calculations with estimated values and it seems that the model is the equivalent of 4450mm shorter than the original - that's nearly 15 feet in 'old money' and apart from being a bit excessive in my view, I can't think of any cases where the builders have shoehorned nearly 3000hp into a 53ft locomotive .... :think:

Rather than cut the length in just one or two locations, it would appear that they have progressively compressed the length of the whole locomotive (apart from around the cab areas) which means there's not much chance of doing some 'cut and shut' surgery to restore the appearance.

Oh well - maybe we can hope that Bachmann will extend the Aristocraft range to include a more accurate example - I won't be holding my breath though .... :)
 
idlemarvel said:
Hi John,
Your are indeed correct if you use 1:22.5 but as mentioned above PIKO standard gauge are typically 1:29. According to PIKO web site the model is 718mm long (over buffers) which is 20.82m at 1:29 scale. According to Wikipedia the length of the 132 is 20.82m which is spot on.
PIKO ref http://www.piko-shop.de/index.php?vw_type=artikel&vw_id=20712
Wikipedia ref https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR_Class_130_family
Click to expand...


Yes Dave - I agree the length is near enough spot on at 1:29 scale - the problem is that the rest of the loco, including the all important height, is scaled at 1:22.5 which accounts for - in my eyes - the unacceptably 'dumpy' appearance.

The Piko BR132 is listed on this site as being to 1:22.5 scale ........

http://www.topslotsntrains.com/topslotsntrains/final.asp?ref=Piko-37580-G-Scale-DR-BR132-DIESEL-LOCOMOTIVE-IV---LUDMILLA-&id=13374&manufacturer='PIKO G Scale'

........ in which case the model should be 916mm long - not 718mm.

I'm trying to find confirmation of that numerical scale on a Piko site but, as with LGB, this is not an easy thing to do as presumably they want to downplay this scale distortion that's going on.
 
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Nearly all the PIKO items in topslots are listed as 1:22.5 in the descriptions which are a bit of a cut and paste job, none of them are 1:22.5 to my knowledge.
I don't think PIKO are involved in any conspiracy to befuddle their customers, they try their best to provide accurate models within the constraints listed in earlier postings, with the added need to be rugged enough to stand being run outdoors.
As I said in my first posting if you are looking for true scale standard gauge models sadly you are not going to find them in off the shelf items from PIKO. In the end it comes down to personal taste and if that loco looks odd to you or doesn't capture the spirit of the loco then spend your money on something else or you'll always have a nagging feeling of disappointment when you run it, and these things cost too much money for that. This is given in the spirit of well meaning advice, not criticism of your desire for realistic models. :)
 
This site gives a pretty good summary of all the scales used by manufacturers of "G scale" locos. Doesn't say why but 1:29 seems to be a common compromise scale for standard gauge locos on 45mm track.
http://www.dccwiki.com/G_scale
 
idlemarvel said:
...... I don't think PIKO are involved in any conspiracy to befuddle their customers, they try their best to provide accurate models within the constraints listed in earlier postings .....
Click to expand...

I think 'conspiracy' would be too strong a word - I just think making a model 718mm long when the true scale length should be 916mm, is pushing this (admittedly neccessary) scale distortion thing way too far.

................. This is given in the spirit of well meaning advice, not criticism of your desire for realistic models. :)
Click to expand...

.... and be assured that is the spirit in which I've taken it .... :nod:

idlemarvel said:
This site gives a pretty good summary of all the scales used by manufacturers of "G scale" locos.
http://www.dccwiki.com/G_scale
Click to expand...

That's probably one of the best explanations of this whole confusing G scale thing I've seen in a long time - thanks for that.

..... Doesn't say why but 1:29 seems to be a common compromise scale for standard gauge locos on 45mm track ......
Click to expand...

I think it's poularity in the US has migrated to the UK because it fits well with gauge one 10mm stock, which equates to 1:30 scale.

My 1:29 locos look just fine with my older UK 10mm stock, whereas newer 1/32 stuff looks a bit on the small side.
 
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I can't vouch one way or the other for the BR132, but for those Piko "standard" gauge models I've managed to measure up against plans, the bodies are generally 1/27 plus or minus a bit. Running gear is often (but not always) underscale as well as undergauge. From memory, when the Taurus first came out I found it was basically to 1/27, but slightly overtall, but the bogies were more or less 1/32.

I've always assumed that 1/27 was chosen so as to be 'visually compatible' with US 1/29 and LGB rubber-ruler standard gauge stuff, but have nothing to prove that either way. The taurus truck being 1/32ish might or might not be evidence of a change of heart from a plan to produce true gauge one models. It might also just be the result of a non-scale compromise being necessary, and if they're gonna be small anyway, might as well make 'em 1/32, in case it comes in useful..

What I can tell you is that the real Ludmilla bogie has 1050mm wheels on a 3700mm total wheelbase, equally divided. The spare block I have in my hand is 114.5mm wheelbase, not quite equally divided (56.25mm+58.25mm), with the standard 37.6mm wheels. That makes the block wheelbase about 1/32 with the centre axle off by a scale inch and a quarter and the wheel diameter about 1/27. Go figure. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Body was 1/27 height and width, but foreshortened to get what others have calculated as 1/29 length and reduce overhang on curves.

Jonathan
g-bits.co.uk
 
Mallarddriver said:
Hey John,
how about that:



Best regards
Soeren
Click to expand...

Thanks for that Soeren - although I'm not sure what your drawing shows, except that it's a 'serie 07' - the cab window and door profile appear to be different to the BR132, but it doesn't matter because the indicated length of 20,620mm is the same for both.

So that kinda proves my point - at 1:29 scale, a model would be 20,620/29 = 711mm long, which is almost the same as the Piko model (718mm).

However, we know that Pico don't make 1:29 models, in fact they are almost certainly 1:22.5 - at which scale, both the loco in your drawing and the Piko BR132 would be 916mm long as I said before.

I wonder if you have another link to that drawing - Google translate doesn't seem to work for me on that source .... thanks.
 
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Hello John,
it´s Serie 07 for the Bulgarian Railway that´s the same as BR 132.



Best regards
Soeren
 
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I think you are getting yourself in a muddle John, easily done in the world of G scales - note the plural!
PIKO (not the same as Peco) don't make any 1:22.5 model locomotives AFAIK
As has been said in several postings in this thread, they are in general around 1:29 as you have found when looking at the scale length.
Some of the PIKO buildings claim to be 1:22.5 but they are also very variable.
 
Trainman 864 said:
Thanks for that Soeren - although I'm not sure what your drawing shows, except that it's a 'serie 07' - the cab window and door profile appear to be different to the BR132, but it doesn't matter because the indicated length of 20,620mm is the same for both.

So that kinda proves my point - at 1:29 scale, a model would be 20,620/29 = 711mm long, which is almost the same as the Piko model (718mm).

However, we know that Peco don't make 1:29 models, in fact they are almost certainly 1:22.5 - at which scale, both the loco in your drawing and the Pico BR132 would be 916mm long as I said before.
Click to expand...

No - as has clearly been stated, 1:22.5 is meter gauge on 45mm. This model is of a standard gauge prototype, which is closer to 1:30. Looking a lot closer.
 
idlemarvel said:
I think you are getting yourself in a muddle John, easily done in the world of G scales - note the plural!
PIKO (not the same as Peco) don't make any 1:22.5 model locomotives AFAIK
As has been said in several postings in this thread, they are in general around 1:29 as you have found when looking at the scale length.
Some of the PIKO buildings claim to be 1:22.5 but they are also very variable.
Click to expand...

Oop's - sorry about that - post #15 edited to correct - although I did get it right in the previous line .... :)
 
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