Peco point (turnout) shorting problem

PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
TRADER
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The 'Harz' layout is built with Peco code 250 track, and whilst it looks 'more prototypical', the points are giving us grief with anything with skates..
This seems to be due to a 'short frog' so the running rails are quite close together either end of the frog.

Looking for a cure, 'fast and dirty' to get us through the next couple of weeks. Followed by a more permanent solution to be implemented over the next couple of months..

Another problem is the existing track / ballast is well-and-truly fastened down!


My thoughts are either a strip of tape on the 'switch' track adjacent to the frog (could be paint/varnish I suppose)??
OR ..
Put the dremel through the track at a similar point (no Pun)??

They all have LGB point-motors fitted if this helps with an auxiliary switch for the medium term solution.
Thoughts / fixes please?
PhilP.
 
My local club had the same problem.
They used tape as you suggest for several years but it needed replacing from time to time, didn`t look very elegant and short wheelbase locos were even more prone to stall.
I volunteered (I know at my age I should know better) to convert eighteen to live frog between shows last year. The modification is successful and you can see it for yourself if you come to G Rail in March.

IMG_0207 (640 x 480).jpg
 
You could remove the skates. Most locos will work fine (especially indoors) without them. And look better too. A bit of nail varnish on the frogs will work but needs to be replaced every so often. It is possible to slitghly bend the skates so they only touch the one rail of the frog not both.
So plenty of solutions, all you have to do is decide which is the best for your circumstances.

For indoor layouts the Peco track looks so much better so it is worth a minor inconvenience.
 
Thanks for that Neil..
I think we will probably have to use tape initially due to time constraints..

Will certainly have a look / pick your brain at G-Rail..
If I can find a solution (even if more of a fiddle to do) which does not involve lifting the points, so much the better!
 
Thanks Chris, agree it does look 'better'..

We have visiting stock, so want 'anything' to run 'out of the box', so to speak..
Even the 'Harz' layout stock we purchased has some problems.. Skates have been bent-up at either end, trimmed for width, and bent 'outwards'.. Not really something you can do to a piece of visiting stock.

I will get a roll of black tape.. 'Neutral' conductor blue tends to show-up a bit!! ;)
 
The Kent group track uses good old nail varnish to extend the length of the frog. Seems to work and lasts quite a while and very easy and quick to put on.
This is an age old problem with Peco points, my Heidi blew its circuit board as it stalled on the short. Smoke came out.
In my opinion, removing skates is detrimental to running (outside). My skateless mallet stutters on a damp evening.
 
Convert the points to live frog and fit a changeover microswitch, it gives you the best running for short wheelbase locos. I did a couple for a friend a few years ago, they're still working fine outdoors.
 
ntpntpntp said:
Convert the points to live frog and fit a changeover microswitch, it gives you the best running for short wheelbase locos. I did a couple for a friend a few years ago, they're still working fine outdoors.
Click to expand...
This is the way I am leaning.. Hope to be able to do this without lifting the points..
Any pointers on where, how long the tape/varnish should be, and where I eventually cut the track??
 
You will need to lift the points to do a decent job of converting to live frog. My approach was probably similar to Neil but slightly simpler, in that I didn't bother converting the wing rails. If I remember correctly I simply cut out the plastic V of the frog and slid the existing rails along to make a new V - making sure one rail led the other to form the tip. The existing rail ends are already ground to a point.

At the tie-bar end, you need to arrange a way of activating a microswitch which is wired to change the frog polarity.

[edit]
here's a link to my thread about converting the Peco frogs:
https://www.gscalecentral.net/track-track-laying/peco-g45-live-frog-conversion/
[/edit]
 
My Peco Points were all converted to live Frog some Years ago. But I did nit have the issue of them being well glued down as I did them. The other option is to Tweak the Skates. Often by Bending Up the Ends a bit. Sometimes bending up from the Loco Side works. As most Skates are easily removed, do this before bending. You could carefully run the bent skates over the Track just after you have done them to ensure your labours are correct before you refit them.

This is not just a Peco Problem. LGB R5's are a nightmare as are on occasion R3. Trainline 45 are problematical too even with Trainline Locomotives. In all cases fiddling with the Track Skates has been the solution.
JonD
 
I think I recall an article in the G Scale Journal in which the author advised fitting a 6mm wide strip of brass over the skate, siting it towards the edge furthest away from the loco chassis. The effect of this is to lift the other edge of the skate off the rail thus avoiding a short circuit whilst still retaining contact with part of the skate. I haven't tried it myself!
 
Thanks everybody..
I think we will go paint/nail varnish in the short term..

I will try to find the 'spare' point to look at the construction underneath.. To lift the points will be a job and a half!
We have enough to do without the grief of pulling the points as well.. :( :(
 
PhilP said:
Thanks everybody..
I think we will go paint/nail varnish in the short term..

I will try to find the 'spare' point to look at the construction underneath.. To lift the points will be a job and a half!
We have enough to do without the grief of pulling the points as well.. :( :(
Click to expand...

Just remembered, if the Track was Glued down with PVA, it is possible to gently remove it with a Wallpaper Steamer. I did exactly this with an O gauge layout that a mate was going to skip as at the time I needed some Peco points. If a wallpaper Striper is not available, there are various Steamers used for Cleaning available at a reasonable price.,
JonD
 
JonD

Having lifted various bits of this layout.. It is stuck down with 'many pins through the sleepers, and exhibition quality glued ballast'. - We have the raw fingertips / knuckles to prove it..
Also, not having the original 'mix' for glue / grime to re-glue the ballast, it would look odd at each point location.

We used (very) hot water, a few drops of washing-up liquid as a wetting agent.. Still needed old screwdrivers, and paint scrapers / chisels to get the **&?$£ stuff up!! ::) :o >:( >:(

I would almost prefer 'tunnelling' up from under the baseboards to lifting the points.. At least I could lay-down on the job!! ;) :D ;D ;D

Of course, if there are any in the Greater Midlands who would like to lend hand.. ALL will be welcome..
The fridge is always well stocked! :D :D
 
Found another 'feature' today..
There is an intermediate station which uses sprung points to forma loop, the route depending on direction of travel of the train..
We have found that travelling in one direction, the engine stalls as it pushes through the point. Further investigation, with a string of lit carriages, shows the carriages still have power, but the engine does not.
It would appear that both of the point rails and blades are dead. The points are quite long, and as soon as all the wheels / skates pass over the frog, there is no current to the engine.. we could cure this on 'our' locos by linking the carriage sockets 'forward' to the engine. - This would supply power for the couple of seconds it takes to either clear the point, or the leading wheels to push the blade hard enough to the fixed rail to provide current.

This looks like a major flaw in the design. - either the wipers / links on the points have failed, or were removed intentionally??

Finding a cure for this, for our Gala at the end of the month could be a headache.
 
PhilP said:
Found another 'feature' today..
There is an intermediate station which uses sprung points to forma loop, the route depending on direction of travel of the train..
Click to expand...

You are most likely aware of this, live frogs and sprung points tend not to mix. A loco approaching incorrectly set live frog points will short out the power as soon as the frog is reached. I suspect a sensor linked to a point motor will be needed if a live frog point is used in this location.
 
PhilP said:
Found another 'feature' today..
There is an intermediate station which uses sprung points to forma loop, the route depending on direction of travel of the train..
We have found that travelling in one direction, the engine stalls as it pushes through the point. Further investigation, with a string of lit carriages, shows the carriages still have power, but the engine does not.
It would appear that both of the point rails and blades are dead. The points are quite long, and as soon as all the wheels / skates pass over the frog, there is no current to the engine.. we could cure this on 'our' locos by linking the carriage sockets 'forward' to the engine. - This would supply power for the couple of seconds it takes to either clear the point, or the leading wheels to push the blade hard enough to the fixed rail to provide current.

This looks like a major flaw in the design. - either the wipers / links on the points have failed, or were removed intentionally??

Finding a cure for this, for our Gala at the end of the month could be a headache.
Click to expand...

Sprung points on the Harz are prototypical. Many loops use them.
The dead switch rail will be because the contact is made by a small wiper at the tip of the rail, which is open.
 
stockers said:
Sprung points on the Harz are prototypical. Many loops use them.
The dead switch rail will be because the contact is made by a small wiper at the tip of the rail, which is open.
Click to expand...
The sprung point may be prototypical.. The motive power isn't though.. :(
Will need to find a 'fix' for this one. - I wonder if the wiper (if ever fitted) has worn out? - I will need to think about this one. Possibly a micro-switch operated by the point lever??
Suppose I had better switch both rails, even if it looks like it is only one which is a problem.
 
You can always use a frog juicer! (electronics that automatically switches the polarity of the frog in a similar way to a reversing loop module does its job)
 
muns said:
You can always use a frog juicer! (electronics that automatically switches the polarity of the frog in a similar way to a reversing loop module does its job)
Click to expand...
? A green point, that turns red at the flick of a switch! ?
;) ;) :D ;D ;D ;D

Seems overkill to put a reversing loop module in.. I will give it a severe stare on Wednesday, and see if I can use a bit of wire, and a micro-switch first. - As it is designed for running always in the same direction through the point, I should be able to do this.
 
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