New to Garden Railways

Airbuspilot

Airbuspilot

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Hi, my name is Robin.

I am very new to large scale layouts and Garden railways, I have some knowledge of DCC and experience with 00 and N gauge.

I have a friend with a selection of RhB rolling stock who is looking to develop an automated garden railway. He is using a Zimo base station and wants to stay with this equipment for other modules. We are looking at block detection with the StEin Stationary Equipment Module and I have some questions.

As I presume most of this type of equipment is sold for smaller layouts would the StEin module be suitable for a large scale trains, the unit can monitor 8 tracks but has a limit of 10 Amps total?

If this is a suitable unit would it be best placed close to the base station with very long leads out to the track, with possible voltage drop in the cables, or placed remotely with a long data cable returning to the base station?

From the picture on the Zimo website it looks like a printed circuit board with no physical protection. If the unit is placed in a weather proof box at a remote position would overheating be an issue in a very hot climate?

The first step will be a long straight with a reversing loop so probably not too demanding for a first step.

These are very early days but I will probably have many more questions as time goes by.

Thanks

Robin
 
Robin welcome to the forum, can't help with the DCC as I am mainly battery with a touch of steam, though I am sure one of our DCC men will be along shortly to answer your question, Just be aware of the humour and we love photos :)
 
JimmyB said:
Robin welcome to the forum, can't help with the DCC as I am mainly battery with a touch of steam, though I am sure one of our DCC men will be along shortly to answer your question, Just be aware of the humour and we love photos :)
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Thanks Jimmy, like your link, as we are starting this project I should do something similar
 
Welcome to the forum, as JimmyB said, there's lots of experts in DCC on here. I see you're in Cyprus, is there a large modell railway following there?
 
Paul M said:
Welcome to the forum, as JimmyB said, there's lots of experts in DCC on here. I see you're in Cyprus, is there a large modell railway following there?
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Thanks Paul, my expertise is very limited where DCC is concerned. I built an N gauge layout during the various lock downs which is DC and fully automated using 3 Arduinos. There is a small group of enthusiasts near me, all expats but this new friend is in a different league.
 
Welcome, I might encourage you to join a Zimo DCC group, where there are many Zimo users in large scale, myself included.

Also we have some very technical people, including specifically one person that is working a lot with the StEin module, and she is in close contact with the Zimo factory, as I am, also.

That module is very flexible, and I have yet to use it, but will. I have 2 MX10 and 3 MX32FU and run the full 20 amps on the track.

Feel free to join, I manage the group: ZIMO-DCC groups.io Group

It is by far the largest English-speaking Zimo forum.

Greg
 
Welcome to the forum Robin.

I know nothing about Zimo as I use Massoth, but 10A should be fine for a G scale layout....
 
Hi Robin ,

I run an automated garden railway - basically G scale. I'm not using quite the same equipment, as my system is Lenz based with LDT occupancy detectors. However I'll have a go at answering your questions!
Airbuspilot said:
As I presume most of this type of equipment is sold for smaller layouts would the StEin module be suitable for a large scale trains, the unit can monitor 8 tracks but has a limit of 10 Amps total?
Click to expand...
Yup, this should be totally fine. My command station is 5A with a 3A limit on each group of 4 current sensing occupancy detectors. I have no problems with power.
Airbuspilot said:
If this is a suitable unit would it be best placed close to the base station with very long leads out to the track, with possible voltage drop in the cables, or placed remotely with a long data cable returning to the base station?
Click to expand...
I'd recommend placing the units around the layout. Get a decent feed from the command station into the units - on chunky cable, then shorter leads out the individual track sections. I have done both, but having the units all together with the command station produces voltage drops and requires a lot of cabling.
Airbuspilot said:
From the picture on the Zimo website it looks like a printed circuit board with no physical protection. If the unit is placed in a weather proof box at a remote position would overheating be an issue in a very hot climate?
Click to expand...
Overheating might be an issue, but you can mitigate against it. Use white or light coloured weather proof boxes rather than black. Position them out of direct sunlight. Make sure they are really weather tight - bottom entry cables, seal any holes inside the box(eg for fixing screws) with sealant, provide drainage holes - these circuit boards don't enjoy sitting in a swimming pool (don't ask how I know!). It really doesn't matter that the circuit boards are uncased.

I have one other thought. I'm not familiar with the Zimo StEin, so I don't know if this is relevant - I see they support Railcom so maybe not. However, If you are using current sensing occupancy detectors designed for HO indoor use, they current sensors may well report occupied at a draw of around 1mA. This works fine most of the time and indoors it isn't a problem. Outdoors it can also work fine, until it gets wet. The problem is that 1mA can easily be drawn through damp leaves, soil, or anything really touching the rail particularly on a long sensed section - it doesn't necessarily leak at one place, but along the whole rail. If you're only using Railcom and not sensing current draw then this wouldn't be a problem. I struggled with this for many years until I found a very simple work around (involving a resistor) to decrease the sensitivity. The Massoth occupancy detectors are triggered by a current of 5mA or optionally 25mA if needs be. Anyway, I'm not sure this is relevant to you, but worth considering if you are using current sensors. I'd be happy to elaborate on the simple fix if relevant!

I also run a couple of reversing loops - I switched to Massoth from LDT for exactly the temperature considerations you identified - Massoth having a broader operating temperature range.

Should it be at all interesting I have a short video on this thread which gives a brief overview of my setup. Automation with Computer Control

Good luck to you and your friend!
 
Greg Elmassian said:
Welcome, I might encourage you to join a Zimo DCC group, where there are many Zimo users in large scale, myself included.

Also we have some very technical people, including specifically one person that is working a lot with the StEin module, and she is in close contact with the Zimo factory, as I am, also.

That module is very flexible, and I have yet to use it, but will. I have 2 MX10 and 3 MX32FU and run the full 20 amps on the track.

Feel free to join, I manage the group: ZIMO-DCC groups.io Group

It is by far the largest English-speaking Zimo forum.

Greg
Click to expand...
Thanks Greg. I will certainly join your group, I need all the specialist help I can find.
 
jimmielx said:
Hi Robin ,

I run an automated garden railway - basically G scale. I'm not using quite the same equipment, as my system is Lenz based with LDT occupancy detectors. However I'll have a go at answering your questions!

Yup, this should be totally fine. My command station is 5A with a 3A limit on each group of 4 current sensing occupancy detectors. I have no problems with power.

I'd recommend placing the units around the layout. Get a decent feed from the command station into the units - on chunky cable, then shorter leads out the individual track sections. I have done both, but having the units all together with the command station produces voltage drops and requires a lot of cabling.

Overheating might be an issue, but you can mitigate against it. Use white or light coloured weather proof boxes rather than black. Position them out of direct sunlight. Make sure they are really weather tight - bottom entry cables, seal any holes inside the box(eg for fixing screws) with sealant, provide drainage holes - these circuit boards don't enjoy sitting in a swimming pool (don't ask how I know!). It really doesn't matter that the circuit boards are uncased.

I have one other thought. I'm not familiar with the Zimo StEin, so I don't know if this is relevant - I see they support Railcom so maybe not. However, If you are using current sensing occupancy detectors designed for HO indoor use, they current sensors may well report occupied at a draw of around 1mA. This works fine most of the time and indoors it isn't a problem. Outdoors it can also work fine, until it gets wet. The problem is that 1mA can easily be drawn through damp leaves, soil, or anything really touching the rail particularly on a long sensed section - it doesn't necessarily leak at one place, but along the whole rail. If you're only using Railcom and not sensing current draw then this wouldn't be a problem. I struggled with this for many years until I found a very simple work around (involving a resistor) to decrease the sensitivity. The Massoth occupancy detectors are triggered by a current of 5mA or optionally 25mA if needs be. Anyway, I'm not sure this is relevant to you, but worth considering if you are using current sensors. I'd be happy to elaborate on the simple fix if relevant!

I also run a couple of reversing loops - I switched to Massoth from LDT for exactly the temperature considerations you identified - Massoth having a broader operating temperature range.

Should it be at all interesting I have a short video on this thread which gives a brief overview of my setup. Automation with Computer Control

Good luck to you and your friend!
Click to expand...
Hi James.

Thanks for your very comprehensive answer which is very useful. I found your video by chance a few days ago which is how I found this site.

My N scale layout is DC and automated using Arduino's, it is four layouts in one and the primary aim was to learn to program in C++, my last effort at programming was in 1980. The layout is sequential using hall sensors for position and train control, it doesn't need block sensors to work. My plan for the coming winter is to break it down and rebuild with a much more complex design, using DCC and block sensors (my wife doesn't know this yet!).

Current sensing with Arduino is fairly strait forward and I can use simple, very cheap modules, however large scale Garden layouts over very large distances is quite a daunting task. My friend is happy to buy the equipment necessary but I would not be happy to have him buy the wrong kit. Its early days and progress will probably be slow, hopefully my learning curve will be faster than the track laying.

We do have wet weather here but my main concern is heat, the temperature today will be very high 20's soon to be mid / high 30's with an occasional heat wave in the 40's, it wont cool down again until mid October. Protecting electronics outdoors with limited shade is going to be a challenge.

Robin
 
Hi Robin,
Given limited shade, maybe your friend will need to locate the current sensors with the Z21. That is possible, then run chunky cable from there to each track section. It’s quite a lot of cabling, but may be necessary - my first layout used this method, but without the chunky cables - it worked, there was voltage drop, but it didn’t cause a problem - onboard lights dimmed a bit at the far reaches of the layout and possibly trains ran slower.
A good idea to start with a small layout and gain experience as he goes!
I just looked at the cost of the StEin - around €350. That is very expensive indeed - it looks to do a lot more than current sensing, but still very pricey and expanding using this technology could become expensive. I understand that some in the smaller scales with the Z21 are using Digikeijs feedback modules which are a great deal cheaper. Maybe worth considering.
James
 
Thanks again James, placing the StEin module near the Z21 as a start makes sense as I guess easy access in the learning phase could make life easier. As you say it will involve lots of wire even if we only use the block detection part. I will look at Digikeijs.
Robin
 
Greg Elmassian said:
one of our forum members just wrote a nice overview on what the Zimo module can do, so that will be helpful in your evaluation, and I am looking forwards to reading it myself. Right now, its capabilities are not well described in the available literature.
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Greg, do you have a link to that overview. The StEin looks like it does a great deal, but at a glance the Zimo literature does look confusing.

Robin, worth considering both. The digikeijs are inexpensive, but do need a bit of setup as I understand it. I doubt this would be a problem with your experience level though. If the StEin does everything as it looks like it might then it still might be a good idea, particularly if you are keeping everything in the same place rather than spreading it around the layout.
 
The post was put on the wrong Zimo forum and it will be there in a day or 2. The big benefit of joining that forum is that it is Zimo specific and there are some very knowledgable people who have used Zimo for a long time, gotten factory training, can access Zimo technical people directly, etc. Actually as good on Zimo as this forum is on Massoth.

Zimo stuff is expensive, I will certainly give you that, owning 2 systems myself, but they have some very interesting ideas and capabilities. Also if you already have a Zimo system, there will be unique capabilities by the fact you have a Zimo command station.

By the way, I use Digitrax for turnout control (pneumatic solenoids), and it's inexpensive, but the reliability is limited at 24v, I burn up 2 per year, no big deal, but not the same quality level or robustness.

Again, I would encourage to join the group, I am not the StEin expert. ZIMO-DCC groups.io Group (no dues or cost) I don't want to start cross posting

Greg
 
Thanks Greg, I’ll have a look in a couple of days. I’m just inquisitive as I use Lenz, but were I investing in a new system I’d definitely be considering Zimo. Interesting to know what’s out there. This is all good information for the OP!
 
Had a read of the StEin manual - it does allow you to set the threshold current for occupancy detection - great!
 
Which Zimo system does the original powter have? I have the newest MX10/MX32FU, plus I have the older MX1/MX31 with separate radio control. And for smaller scales there is a Zimo handheld system. Be good for posters to let us know which Zimo system they have to better answer questions/help them.
 
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