Massoth EVO-X - 'Spring return' function

[Cobalt6700]

Hi,

I have an EVO-X in my hands and have been trying to get the spring return function to work.

My intention was to use X's on a passing loop, making use of the auto return after blades 'cut open' function. I set CV115 to 12, which the manual states to do to activate this function.

When switching the point via DCC command, it drives to the correct position, and if I push the blades to the other side then it will return the blades to the commanded position - great.

The issue comes when I program either CV51 or CV52, which the manual states is the return time after being cut open, as when I program these to anything other than 0, the point motor goes side to side constantly, with the delay time set in the CV's.

I have asked the supplier and they are going to speak to Massoth Technical.
I'm guessing The Shed might have some pearls of wisdom, or if anyone here knows anything about these motors and how to get this function to work? Have I missed a CV setting somewhere?

Cheers

 

[Loco]

Did you try CV53 and CV54, they are labelled freewheel?

 

[Cobalt6700]

Did you try CV53 and CV54, they are labelled freewheel?

I haven't no - I'll give them a go.

 

[Loco]

I read the CV list one more time, CV115=12 doesn't specify any time limit, however CV115=(1+2)=3 does. Maybe this is the correct setting?

 

[The Shed]

might have some pearls of wisdom.

Slowly, slowly catchy monkey.

The old English proverb means, do not rush and avoid being too hasty, then eventually you will achieve your goal - in other words, be patient.

Which is relevant to the EVO-X, as it is a 'Time Based' operation, more of a slow smooth Waltz as opposed to a harsh fierce Argentine Tango!

 

[Cobalt6700]

Thanks for the replies all.

I have had some time to test, I will include the details below but the high level summary is this:

The warning that The Shed pointed out is only stated for the EVO-S, not for the EVO-X. With the added functionality of the X, I don't see why the S warning should apply to the X - it does make sense to use these CV's to set the time delay values for the X to return after cut open as the manual states:
This allows automatic switching operations to be triggered by the movement, such as a drop-back switch after driving up.
When the train cut opens the turnout, the turnout can be automatically switched back to the desired preferred position via a time value in CV51 or CV52.
However - the point motor doesn't do this - well, mine doesn't anyway!

Starting from a factory reset decoder, and CV's reset to 0 each time:
1. Setting CV115 -> 1 “left switch executes after time x when cut-open”, doesn't affect operation. I'm guessing this setting is for when the switches are used to control external functions, e.g. signals.
2. Setting CV115 -> 1, CV52 -> 2 “Time automatic reverse left”, Returns the motor from right left after a DCC command (that's crap) but doesn't do anything when cut open (also crap).
3. Setting CV115 -> 4 “left switch closes the switch tongues after cut-open”, no return on DCC commands (great), instantly returns on cut open (okay, but instant is pretty useless to everyone!).
4. Setting CV115 -> 4 and CV52 -> 2, returns the motor from right left after a DCC command (again, crap), instantly returns on cut open, then goes back the other way after 2 seconds - errr, you what.
4. Setting CV115 -> 12 "both switches close the switch tongues after cut-open", works fine on DCC commands (great), but instantly returns when cut open (again - no good).
5. Setting CV115 -> 12, CV51 / CV52 >0, we get that instant move back one way, followed by a timed move back the other way (as item 4). If CV51 and CV52 are both >0, the motor just oscillates back and forth.

I repeated the tests with CV53 and CV54 set at 2, they don't make any difference.

I have also set CV51/CV52 to > 0 on the S and the X, and they both behave the same way, which is they return after a DCC command and do nothing if they are cut open.

My understanding from reading the manual on the X is:
With CV115 >= 4;
- A DCC command should not cause the the motor to move back to an un-commanded position (this makes sense to me), e.g I tells it to be closed or thrown, it should be there (this is true with just CV115 >=4).
- A loco running through the points will move the blades, the motor will detect this and move back to the commanded position after a set amount of time.

I am unsure as to why you would want it to function otherwise. Returning the point blade as soon as the motor detects it has moved from its commanded position will only result in derailments!


Either I have a duff unit (I am hoping this is the case!) or it doesn't work as the manual states.


Still waiting to hear from Massoth Technical through the supplier.

 

[Cobalt6700]

Here is the detail, if anyone fancies a go I'd be interested to know what you find.





Thrown is shown as “T”. Closed is shown as “C”.

1. X reset to factory default via CV8 -> 8

Test 1 - Left switch executes.

1. CV115 -> 1 “left switch executes after time x when cut-open”
2. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. No return
3. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. No return
4. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Manually move the blade to C. No return.
5. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Manually move the blade to T. No return
6. Manually move blades. No return in either C or T.

Test 2 - Auto return Left, Left switch executes.

1. CV52 -> 2 “Time automatic reverse left”
2. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. No return
3. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Auto timed return to T.
4. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Manually move the blade to C. No return.
5. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Manually move the blade to T. Auto timed return to T
6. Manually move blades back and forth. No return.

Test 3 - Auto return Right, Left switch executes.

1. CV51 -> 2 “Time automatic reverse right”
2. CV52 -> 0 “Time automatic reverse left”
3. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Auto timed return to C.
4. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. No return.
5. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Manually move the blade to C. Auto timed return to C.
6. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Manually move the blade to T. Auto timed return to C.
7. Manually move blades. Always timed return to C.

Test 4 - Auto return Right, Right switch executes.

1. CV115 -> 2 “right switch executes after time x when cut-open”
2. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Auto timed return to C.
3. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. No return.
4. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Manually move the blade to C. Auto timed return to C.
5. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Manually move the blade to T. No return.
6. Manually move blades. No return.

Test 5 - Auto return Left, Right switch executes.

1. CV51 -> 0 “Time automatic reverse right”
2. CV52 -> 2 “Time automatic reverse left”
3. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. No return.
4. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Auto timed return to T.
5. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Manually move the blade to C. Auto timed return to T.
6. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Manually move the blade to T. Auto timed return to T.
7. Manually move blades. Always timed return to T.

Test 6 - Auto return Left

1. CV115 -> 0 “position switches deactivated”
2. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. No return.
3. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Auto timed return to T.
4. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Manually move the blade to C. No return.
5. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Manually move the blade to T. Auto timed return to T.
6. Manually move blades.No return.

Test 7 - Auto return Right

1. CV51 -> 2 “Time automatic reverse right”
2. CV52 -> 0 “Time automatic reverse left”
3. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Auto timed return to C.
4. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. No return.
5. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Manually move the blade to C. Auto timed return to C.
6. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Manually move the blade to T. No Return.
7. Manually move blades.No return.

Observation - when CV115 is set with switches opposite to the return direction in CV51/CV52 (e.g. CV52 > 0, CV115 = 2 Auto return Left, Right switch executes), the motor always returns to the direction set by CV51/CV52. If they are set in the same direction, then the motor only returns on a DCC command.
When CV115 = 0, the auto return function only works via DCC command - manually moving the blades does not work.


Test 8 - Left switch closes

1. CV51 -> 0 “Time automatic reverse right”
2. CV52 -> 0 “Time automatic reverse left”
3. CV115 -> 4 “left switch closes the switch tongues after cut-open”
4. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. No return.
5. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. No return.
6. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Manually move the blade to C. No Return.
7. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Manually move the blade to T. Instant return to C.
8. Manually move blades. Instant return to C.

Test 9 - Left switch closes, Auto return Left

1. CV52 -> 2 “Time automatic reverse left”
2. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. No return.
3. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Auto timed return to T.
4. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Manually move the blade to C. No Return.
5. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Manually move the blade to T. Instant return to C, then timed return to T.
6. Manually move blades.

T -> C, No Return.
C -> T,Instant return to C, then timed return to T.


Test 10 - Left switch closes, Auto return Right

1. CV51 -> 2 “Time automatic reverse right”
2. CV52 -> 0 “Time automatic reverse left”
3. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Auto timed return to C.
4. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. No Return.
5. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Manually move the blade to C. Timed return to C.
6. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Manually move the blade to T. Instant return to C.
7. Manually move blades.

T -> C, Instant return to T.
C -> T No Return.

If the manual is to be understood correctly: “When the train cut opens the turnout, the turnout can be automatically switched back to the desired preferred position via a time value in CV51 or CV52”.
Putting a value into CV51 here should set the time for the auto return when the point is cut open. However, it returns on a DCC command and does not do a timed move back to the commanded position.
This is how I would expect it to work:

Desired Effect - Left switch closes after cut open:
CV51 -> 0 “Time automatic reverse right”
CV52 -> 2 “Time automatic reverse left”
CV115 -> 4 “left switch closes the switch tongues after cut-open”
Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Does not return.
Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Does not return.
Loco cuts blades T -> C, Timed return to T according to value set in CV52.
Loco cuts blades C -> T, No Return.

 

[Cobalt6700]

Test 11 - Right switch closes

1. CV51 -> 0 “Time automatic reverse right”
2. CV52 -> 0 “Time automatic reverse left”
3. CV115 -> 8 “left switch closes the switch tongues after cut-open”
4. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. No return.
5. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. No return.
6. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Manually move the blade to C. Instant return to T.
7. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Manually move the blade to T. No Return.
8. Manually move blades.Instant return to T.

Test 12 - Right switch closes, Auto return Left

1. CV52 -> 2 “Time automatic reverse left”
2. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Auto timed return to C.
3. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. No Return.
4. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Manually move the blade to C.Instant return to T, then timed return to C..
5. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Manually move the blade to T. No Return.
6. Manually move blades.

T -> C, Instant return to T.
C -> T, No return.


Test 13 - Right switch closes, Auto return Right

1. CV51 -> 2 “Time automatic reverse right”
2. CV52 -> 0 “Time automatic reverse left”
3. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. No Return.
4. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Auto timed return to T.
5. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Manually move the blade to C. No Return.
6. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Manually move the blade to T.Timed return to T.
7. Manually move blades.

T -> C, Instant return to T..
C -> T No Return.


Test 14 - both switches close the switch tongues after cut-open

1. CV51 -> 0 “Time automatic reverse right”
2. CV52 -> 0 “Time automatic reverse left”
3. CV115 -> 12
4. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. No Return.
5. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. No Return.
6. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Manually move the blade to C. Instant return to T.
7. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Manually move the blade to T. Instant return to C.
8. Manually move blades.

T -> C, Instant return to T.
C -> T, Instant return to C.


Test 15 - both switches close the switch tongues after cut-open, Auto return Right

1. CV51 -> 2 “Time automatic reverse right”
2. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Auto timed return to C.
3. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. No Return.
4. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Manually move the blade to C. Auto timed return to C.
5. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Manually move the blade to T. Instant return to C.
6. Manually move blades.

T -> C, Instant return to T, then timed return to C.
C -> T, Instant return to C.


Test 16 - both switches close the switch tongues after cut-open, Auto return Left

1. CV51 -> 0 “Time automatic reverse right”
2. CV52 -> 2 “Time automatic reverse left”
3. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. No Return.
4. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Auto timed return to T.
5. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Manually move the blade to C. Instant return to T.
6. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Manually move the blade to T. Auto timed return to T.
7. Manually move blades.

T -> C, Instant return to T
C -> T, Instant return to C, then timed return to T.


Test 17 - both switches close the switch tongues after cut-open, Auto return Left, Auto return Right

1. CV51 -> 2 “Time automatic reverse right”
2. Motor set T -> Motor moves back and forth between T and C. Unable to stop with turnout commands.
3. CV51 -> 0 “Time automatic reverse right”
4. Motor stops. Remainder of tests not possible.
5. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Manually move the blade to C.
6. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Manually move the blade to T.
7. Manually move blades.

T -> C,
C -> T,


Test 18 - both switches close the switch tongues after cut-open, Switch time delay free wheel right, Switch time delay free wheel left

1. CV51 -> 0 “Time automatic reverse right”
2. CV52 -> 0 “Time automatic reverse left”
3. CV53 -> 2 “Switch time delay free wheel right”
4. CV54 -> 2 “Switch time delay free wheel left”
5. CV115 -> 12
6. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. No Return.
7. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. No Return.
8. Motor set T -> Motor moves to T. Manually move the blade to C. Instant return to T.
9. Motor set C -> Motor moves to C. Manually move the blade to T. Instant return to C.
10. Manually move blades.

T -> C, Instant return to T
C -> T, Instant return to C.

 

[dunnyrail]

Blub blub blub and all to achieve something that a lump of spring wire can achieve. Indeed DCC is not as simple as one would wish. But kudos for persevering.

 

[Cobalt6700]

Blub blub blub and all to achieve something that a lump of spring wire can achieve. Indeed DCC is not as simple as one would wish. But kudos for persevering.

I agree!

I would like very much for a) it to be as easy as the manual / video and b) not to have done the above. Hopefully I have got a duff motor and they are as simple as they say!

 

[The Shed]

Setting the EVO-X to the following,
CV115 = 1, left switch executes after time X when cut open,
CV51 = 3, time automatic reverse right, as per the video.....

Even with the above activated, NORMAL activation via the Arrow Keys on the Navigator are unaffected.

 

[Cobalt6700]

Setting the EVO-X to the following,
CV115 = 1, left switch executes after time X when cut open,
CV51 = 3, time automatic reverse right, as per the video.....

Even with the above activated, NORMAL activation via the Arrow Keys on the Navigator are unaffected.

View attachment 329838

Thanks!

This is how I would expect it to work - however, mine does not do that - when moved by DCC command it always moves back.

Looking more like I have a duff unit.

 

[xmas111]

I just bought 2 EVO-X switch for the same reason....automatic return after a cut-out.

I have spent way to much time trying to get this function to work.

Has anyone ever figured out how to get these to work? (automatic return after a cut-out)

Thanks.

 

[AlanL]

I don't have one of these myself but was interested in their function. Looking at the results from Cobalt6700 in his test tables post #7, don't either test 3 or test 5 satisfy the automatic return to a default position? You can't have a default to 2 different positions. It seems that the wrong combination of CV's can give strange and conflicting results.
I'm not sure of the purpose of CV 115 values of 4 and 8 though, seems that they should be avoided!
AL

 

[xmas111]

Yes, they do return to the "T" position when they are manually moved to "C" position but they also return to "T" position when given a DCC command to move to "C" position. And vise versa.

 

[Cobalt6700]

So, an update as to where I got too.

I have been speaking with Gartenbahn Supplies (I bought the EVO-X through them) in regards to this issue. They have been really good at keeping on top of this and have been in touch with Massoth Technical.
Looking to be like the firmware doesn't allow the motor to act as we think it should.

Currently my comments and Gartenbahn Supplies's comments are with the person who designed the software for the EVO-X.

From my point of view;

My understanding from reading the manual on the X is:
With CV115 >= 4;
- A DCC command should not cause the the motor to move back to an un-commanded position (this makes sense to me), e.g I tell it to be closed or thrown, it should be there (this is true with CV115 >= 4, CV51+52 = 0).
- A loco running through the points will move the blades, the motor will detect this and move back to the commanded position after a set amount of time.

Reading the manual again, and going back on my testing notes, it seems that if CV115>4 then the blades are returned instantly on being driven up. I still don't understand why you would want this function - I would be happy to learn though. T0 me, returning the point blade as soon as the motor detects it has moved from its commanded position will only result in derailments!

It also seems that the X motor is only able to return to one 'last' position. I understand why that is the case for the S as it only has 1 microswitch, so it can only return to the last commanded position, and if CV51 and CV52 are >0, it can't know that last position (due to one switch) and gets stuck in a loop.
For the X however, it has 3 microswitches, one for each direction and one for move - so it should be able to return to the commanded (known) position after being driven up.

With all the above - it feels to me like the motor isn't quite as clever and doesn't do quite what I would expect it to, which is a shame really.

 

[Software Tools]

T0 me, returning the point blade as soon as the motor detects it has moved from its commanded position will only result in derailments!

Mechanically "sprung" points do exactly this and it doesn't automagically cause derailments! However, on the real railways it cause additional wear on the point blades so it is really on sustainable at low speeds.

For the $$$ a EVO-X costs it should be able to more than a what a simple spring/dashpot/gravity mechanism can achieve.

 

[xmas111]

To think of all the money spent on these it's really depressing they do not have this function even though they say they do.......they even show

Can someone explain to me what CV 53 and 54 do?

Thanks.

 

[PhilP]

I think this is a case of them doingexactly what they have been programmed to do, and not what the programmer thinks they have been programmed to do?

There is a lot of this about, unfortunately..

PhilP

 

[Cobalt6700]

I would have to disagree there PhiliP - I'm not quite sure it does what it says it should do and I would think if Massoth are interested enough to chat back and forth about it for ~2 months then it probably is a thing that needs some sort of thinking about.

I'm aware there is a lot of info in this thread and wood for the tress and all that, the part for me that sums up why these do not work as the manual states is this:

From the manual:
7.6 Position Switches (CV115)
• The Switch Drive EVO-X has two
microswitches on the switching
rod for real position detection.
• This allows automatic switching
operations to be triggered by the
movement, such as a drop-back
switch after driving up.
• When the train cut opens the turn-
out, the turnout can be automati-
cally switched back to the desired
preferred position via a time value
in CV51 or CV52.

However - the point motor doesn't do this.

CV115 = 1 or 2, doesn't affect blade operation. I'm guessing this setting is for when the switches are used to control external functions, e.g. signals.

CV115 = 4 or 8 and CV51/52 = >0 , returns the motor from right left after a DCC command, instantly returns on cut open, then goes back the other way after "CV51/52" seconds.

CV115 = 12 works fine on DCC commands, but instantly returns when cut open.

CV115 = 12 and CV51/52 >0, we get that instant move back one way, followed by a timed move back the other way.

If CV51 and CV52 are both >0, the motor just oscillates back and forth, irrespective of the CV115 value.

I understand why the EVO-S oscillates with 1 microswitch, however the X has a switch for each position and a 3rd 'moved' switch.


If anyone believes they have a use case for the way it currently operates, I would like to hear them