LGB R1 dead frog points.

S

Sarah Winfield

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My Stainz will either stop or hesitate over my points.

Is this something inherent in R1 dead frog points and has any member found a solution please?

I'm sure there are modifications like more pick-ups but I wondered if there is anything can be done to the point please?

Thanks

Sarah Winfield
 
Did you check that it was picking up from all wheels and skates?

lay it on it's back, hook one power lead to one skate, and then touch the other power to each wheel and skate on the "other" side...

you have 3 pickups per side (AFAIK) so you need to do 6 tests... it should make it... after you have verified the loco, only then test the switch.

Greg
 
I have enough confidence in John S to accept he will have checked exactly as you say.

There is a slight wobblyness when the unit is sat on a flat surface so whether that accounts for the hesitation I don't know. Any way I'm sure I'll work out something.

SW
 
Have you checked the current over the points along each rail, one of your previous posts mentions disconnected connectors on the underside, however just because they are in place doesn't mean they are connected. I bought a number of point second hand and each one was thoroughly "bench tested" before use, i.e. piece of straight track to each outlet and run on my workbench through all configurations and any faults identified and rectified, this how I found the issue with Aristocraft having a shallower area around the frog lifting the wheel tread off the track.
 
My advice may sound severe: do not assume anything. A simple test is best. Stuff can break any time, and even though it is unlikely to have happened, you should test. When you make assumptions, you often make problems.

I could have tested the loco in the time it took me to make these 2 posts.

Greg
 
I have (had, they’re battery now) three LGB 0-4-0 chassis locos. All of them had problems with points/switches/turnouts. I found that the points/switches/turnouts have to be 100% level across the width of the track. Any deviation would cause the loco to tilt slightly and break the connection. Also had to make sure the skates have enough movement up and down. The possibility of the loco rising on a skate can lift wheels and break the connection.
I’d also ensure, as has been suggested, that you test the actual rails of the point/switch/turnout to ensure that current is flowing where it should.
I’m afraid Sarah, that this is all part of the constant ‘testing’ needed for a garden railway!
 
Greg Elmassian said:
Did you check that it was picking up from all wheels and skates?

lay it on it's back, hook one power lead to one skate, and then touch the other power to each wheel and skate on the "other" side...

you have 3 pickups per side (AFAIK) so you need to do 6 tests... it should make it... after you have verified the loco, only then test the switch.

Greg
Click to expand...
The Stainz is fitted with a traction tyre. This effectively reduces the number of pickups to 3 on one side and 2 on the other with the traction tyre.
 
Sarah what sort of speed do they stall ? both my Stainz a 20212 and the latest version of one, both will hesitate and stall if I run them too slow over R1 points , I have found the minimum speed my stainz's will travel over the points a bit faster than I would like in some places, but for now I live with it till a either add more pickups or fit a power buffer to them.
 
I find them always a bit hesitant over 4 R1 points the best solution if everything otherwise is working correctly is put pickups on the following wagon or coach and feed additional power to the loco through the plug on the rear of the loco. More pickup wheels smother running.
 
My guess that with the "2 pickup side" to the frog, you would get some hesitation/stalling... you could try to isolate it down to whether it stalls with the skate on the frog or the non-traction tired wheel.

Short wheelbase locos are often a pain. I removed all traction tires from all my locos to get better pickup.

Greg
 
I have carried out a test with 2 stainz locos, one fitted with the traction tyre and the other without. There was no loss of traction with the loco that did not have the traction tyre fitted and it ran without hesitation over the R1 points. One further point to note is that all my Stainz and other short wheelbase locos weigh 2.2Kg. The extra weight was determined by a number of trials. The addition of extra weight significantly improved performance
 
A good point about the added weight, Paul Stainz (late of this forum) alway added additional weight to his locos he has about 40 stainz if remember correctly.
 
Martino said:
I found that the points/switches/turnouts have to be 100% level across the width of the track. Any deviation would cause the loco to tilt slightly and break the connection.
Click to expand...

Too true, exactly what I have found.

Particular problem I found was that one of the frog rails was not level with respect to the other rails, meaning one wheel would hang slightly/momentarily in mid air. When/if the following wheel on the same side of the loco hit the dead frog......instant loss of pick up. As noted, mainly on short wheelbase locos.
My fix, was to get the frog rails level.
 
BakerJohn said:
Do your locos ever slip, Greg?
Click to expand...
Yes of course, all locos slip at some time!

ha ha, I know you were trying to set me up... Actually I almost always consist my locos, steam and diesel. Not only do I have some steep grades, but it's a lot more fun.

There's another piece in the puzzle, traction tires can make loads heavier on a drive train, due to the increased traction. Also having tires on some wheels and not the others has resulted in uneven wear in motor blocks (as you would expect).

Removing all traction tires, adding weight and running adequate locos to pull the load has worked out very well for me. No torn up gearboxes, no slipping locos, or running them at the edge of traction.

My typical 10 car passenger is an ABA consist, in freights of medium length I use an ABBA of F3 units, or 3 large modern diesels. In steam I often doublehead, or follow prototypical practice of adding a helper on a steep grade.

Makes for more fun, and since everything has sound, multiple units sound great.

Greg
 
Have to say that I find even 0-6-0's an issue on any dead frog points though some of the LGB Shunters at 0-6-0 and even 0-4-0 perform better than others. Traction Tyres are always a bone of contention with regard to pickup, even on my Train-line and Peco (converted to) Live Frog Points the small locomotives are challenged. This is why I have gone over to big engines and converted a small LGB 0-4-0 to Battery Power (without wishing to raise a stink) this works better for me.
 
Sorry..... I missed the follow-up replies.

I hadn't even considered the traction tyre, so tomorrow I'll investigate whether it is nearly always on one side which ever way the locomotive is travelling. What about the thickness of the tyre compared with the width of the rail head?

So, power is through 3 wheels and the pick-up skates. It's an interesting situation. Rather than remove the tyre now, is it safe for me to try fitting some copper tape or some kitchen foil temporarily round that wheel to see if things improve? I'll make sure of course it is touching the metal part of the wheel.

Must try it tomorrow.

I was going to ask about Newray wagons but Peter Zenner has replied to my email enquiry.

Now the LGB sleeping car beckons.

Good night or good morning depending on where you are.

Sarah Winfield
 
Sarah Winfield said:
Sorry..... I missed the follow-up replies.

I hadn't even considered the traction tyre, so tomorrow I'll investigate whether it is nearly always on one side which ever way the locomotive is travelling. What about the thickness of the tyre compared with the width of the rail head?

So, power is through 3 wheels and the pick-up skates. It's an interesting situation. Rather than remove the tyre now, is it safe for me to try fitting some copper tape or some kitchen foil temporarily round that wheel to see if things improve? I'll make sure of course it is touching the metal part of the wheel.
Sarah Winfield
Click to expand...
Actually the 4 wheels all have pickups, look underneath and you can see that the Traction Tyred wheel also has the Plug pickups, problem is that the pickup is only working from the Flange rather than the full wheel so gets interupted power on that wheel. Interesting fix using Copper Tape, may just help some.

Back when I was CME for the Ruschbahn we has a small Feldbahn Locomotive that did not like any points at all. It was the Pilot for the Cuckoo Factory and was quite an important part of the train plan, so I made a kind of Brake Tender for it with LGB Ball Bearing Wheels that were connected to the Locmotive for addotional pickups. End of problems.
 
First post for me here. I'm very new to this G scale game. I'm running a new analogue Stainz from a starter set around garden circuit with a number of R1 points. I noticed it was starting to hesitate over one new point and after cleaning everything and various unsuccessful attempts at fettling the metalwork then discovered the true culprit. The skate was actually shorting across to the opposite polarity rail at the frog. The skates have a fair amount of wear - the loco has done many hours of running - but gently bending the skate so that it's slightly higher to the outside was all that was needed.

Great forum by the way - the help, advice and knowledge is invaluable and it's a very positive atmosphere.
 
Doug Whitfield said:
First post for me here. I'm very new to this G scale game. I'm running a new analogue Stainz from a starter set around garden circuit with a number of R1 points. I noticed it was starting to hesitate over one new point and after cleaning everything and various unsuccessful attempts at fettling the metalwork then discovered the true culprit. The skate was actually shorting across to the opposite polarity rail at the frog. The skates have a fair amount of wear - the loco has done many hours of running - but gently bending the skate so that it's slightly higher to the outside was all that was needed.

Great forum by the way - the help, advice and knowledge is invaluable and it's a very positive atmosphere.
Click to expand...
Ah forgot to mention that issue as well. Even worse at times on R3 points.
 
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