It seems we all blow off too much!?

C

CoggesRailway

Registered
I try to run (lady anne) with the burner backed off to nearly inaudiable so she's not blowing loads of steam past the saftey valve. However with a decent train on my admittly testing gradients I am soon in "regular pauses to build steam" territory when climbing. Hopefully the new CoggesRailway which will be level will help!

Yes, if I whack up the burner and let her constantly blow at 40psi she performs VERY well - but it's a bit unrealistic. I like to think of the crew who had the art of balancing things just right, and would like to emulate that.

And before people come back too quick with "operator error" which no doubt is part or all of the problem- have you noticed that on the 100s of clips on youtube there is many a burner roaring and a valve blowing!?
 
It's bad practice, whether it's on youtube or not! I try and run mine without the safety valve ever lifting if possible. But then I tend not to run on lines as sevrely graded as yours- it just means you have an even smaller area between too low pressure and blowing off, and hence requires even greater operator skill!

Not sure how viable it is on a Lady Anne, but I know Graham (JohnSaintJim) has fitted radio control to the gas regulator on his Lawley- something to possibly consider.
 
I agree matt... one big reason the line is being realigned and levelled out! interesting u mentioned about rc-ing the gas valve- I have wished I had that a few times. I think if I were able to vary the burner I would have a much better chance- just to tweak it up every circuit or so.

but yes is suspect the real problem is the gradients are too great on my line and make the "zone" very narrow if there at all.

Interesting thought though - I would guess the majority of people u see running have their engines blowing a bit which isn't that realistic.
 
I guess the question is if your radio controlled then why not control the gas valve as well and ramp it up when comming on the gradient? If no radio then it's either burn your fingers or as you do let it build up steam on it's own which is what I do although my Grades are not severe enough to actually stop the loco just slow it down considerably!!

May I commend everybody on the lack of comment on the title...................More bean's Mr Taggert?.............Sorry couldn't resist...........

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CoggesRailway said:
minimans- lol sorry title was a little childish- must be the bank holiday getting to me :)
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No apology needed mate, we're all children here!!!!!
 
Perhaps there is another thought here. Is there too much water in the boiler? Too much water will mean too small a steam space and then the pressure will drop very quickly, requiring a higher pressure at the start of the run. The whole essence of driving steam is one of balance. I do have to say it's a darn sight easier when you're sat on it and can see instantly what is going on.
 
funandtrains said:
I can't remember the maker but I'm sure someone will post a link but there is an automatic gas regulator than you link to the steam line and set the pressure you want to maintain so totally hands free. I think PPS are an agent.
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http://www.forest-classics.co.uk/bix029.htm < Link To Forest Classics makes an "Automatic Boiler Pressure Regulator" which automatically regulates the height of the flame relevant to the boiler pressure using the gas pressure adjustment valve. It sounds a good idea but I've not heard of anyone using one and they are not small - 40mm high and 19mm diameter - or inexpensive - £45 less a penny.
Steve
 
400Parker said:
funandtrains said:
I can't remember the maker but I'm sure someone will post a link but there is an automatic gas regulator than you link to the steam line and set the pressure you want to maintain so totally hands free. I think PPS are an agent.
Click to expand...
http://www.forest-classics.co.uk/bix029.htm < Link To Forest Classics makes an "Automatic Boiler Pressure Regulator" which automatically regulates the height of the flame relevant to the boiler pressure using the gas pressure adjustment valve. It sounds a good idea but I've not heard of anyone using one and they are not small - 40mm high and 19mm diameter - or inexpensive - £45 less a penny.
Steve

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They do work certainly ? I have one on my Cheddar Reisa. Someone fitted one to a Lady Anne, but it seems you need your standard regulator as well on RH locos. I tried fitting one of DJB's gas pressure regulators to a RH loco and the plain fact was that it didn't work on it's own as the Cheddar ones do. You should not really be having this problem. OK Roundhouse burners will need turning down during the course of a run due to the convected heat raising the pressure in the gas tank, but it should not cause that much of a snag.

Gradients cause problems ? ESPECIALLY if coupled with fixed proprietary 'curves' and 'straights.' Real railway track does not use this method of tracklaying and steam locomotives don't like it. Best use 'flexitrack' to allow for transitional curves...

tag
 
As Lady Anne cylinders are about 4 times bigger than would be actually required if it were a full sized loco you can happily drive at full regulator with 15psi on the clock and pull a decent sized train. This gives a massive margin (15-60psi) to act as a "power store" whilst running downhill and on the level with a lowish flame, then plenty regulator and off you go up the 1in35 again using up the stored power.

At first I thought Roundhouse had massively over calculated the cylinder size (you wouldn't have enough adhesion to use full regulator at full boiler pressure) but after a little thought I realised it is just a really well designed and balanced set up.

Of course if you build a halt halfway up the bank you can have hours of fun getting you loco to stop for lack of steam at the halt and then set off again as the pressure rises. Must confess to cheating here and moving the halt to where the trains tend to stop ;-)

Happy steamings,

John
 
well with the Frank S-

i have too much fuel -which is sensitive to temp and dropping pressure-basically as is exits,  the fuel tanks 'freezes'-thus the water bath to act as a cold sink

and too little water in the boiler given the amount of fuel and no way to top up as i have no goodall-

so i try to run at lower pressure-like 1.5 -2 bars

-its blow off pressure is very low-2.5-tried to stretch the spring on the blow off a touch to give a more seal-in any event less burner output is more-on the frank i mostly control the burner by the temp of the water bath-the valve is rather on or off with very little in between 

if im running its polite and contained -if i stand for any length-it blows-grades make a huge difference as does load


OTOH the Roundhouse SRRL 24-older version

lots of water and too little fuel--i also try to fill the boiler a  little less for greater efficiency (mine does have the old tender top off -which i have yet to need) (on really cold days once or twice ive actually boiled the water on the stove before taking it out-and then carefully filled it -what a huge difference-so much fuel is wasted simply getting things up to steam and the loss in heating the entire engine-not a practical solution but really wonderful on icy winter days-i have even done this on one outing to another layout by using a thermos-sounds wonky but its a huge advantage-for both locos 

again i run at very low fuel output-'just enough'- a quieter roar 

-on this loco, however, my fuel pressure rises as things heat up due to the tank being over and behind the back head as opposed to the tender
 
yes I am very much got to tags conclusion- it is about having realistic track- and as my other threads show I am going to do it!! My current rails would be happier at Blackpool on a rollercoaster... so I am going to emulate Brunel between London and Reading for the future... Having said all that it's no problem- I enjoy working her hard, and the little pauses are quite fun as it's fun to see her chuff back up to speed.
 
I find dead flat can be a bit boring to drive, unless there is loads of space. A few sensible grades add to the fun IMHO. I'm rather surprised I got away so well with mine, it's an unholy length really (15yds @ 1:40).
 
stevedenver said:
well with the Frank S-

i have too much fuel -which is sensitive to temp and dropping pressure-basically as is exits, the fuel tanks 'freezes'-thus the water bath to act as a cold sink

and too little water in the boiler given the amount of fuel and no way to top up as i have no goodall-

so i try to run at lower pressure-like 1.5 -2 bars

-its blow off pressure is very low-2.5-tried to stretch the spring on the blow off a touch to give a more seal-in any event less burner output is more-on the frank i mostly control the burner by the temp of the water bath-the valve is rather on or off with very little in between

if im running its polite and contained -if i stand for any length-it blows-grades make a huge difference as does load


OTOH the Roundhouse SRRL 24-older version

lots of water and too little fuel--i also try to fill the boiler a little less for greater efficiency (mine does have the old tender top off -which i have yet to need) (on really cold days once or twice ive actually boiled the water on the stove before taking it out-and then carefully filled it -what a huge difference-so much fuel is wasted simply getting things up to steam and the loss in heating the entire engine-not a practical solution but really wonderful on icy winter days-i have even done this on one outing to another layout by using a thermos-sounds wonky but its a huge advantage-for both locos

again i run at very low fuel output-'just enough'- a quieter roar

-on this loco, however, my fuel pressure rises as things heat up due to the tank being over and behind the back head as opposed to the tender
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Ah ? the Frank S. This design did not take into account the drop in temperature due to the fuel tank being sited in the tender. Even if you put hot water in the bath it will soon cool down. I modified one of these locos by putting a gas tank in the cab where the convected heat from the boiler kept the pressure up in the gas tank. This makes a huge difference. The other way (which I have not had a chance to try is to fit a gas pressure regulator. I understand Forest Classics do these. If you use a gas pressure regulator then all you need to do is put room temp water into the tender bath and the gas burner will work fine. I have used this on a Cheddar tender loco and it works very well indeed.

Tag
 
bobg said:
I find dead flat can be a bit boring to drive, unless there is loads of space. A few sensible grades add to the fun IMHO. I'm rather surprised I got away so well with mine, it's an unholy length really (15yds @ 1:40).
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I have never yet seen a garden railway that has no grades. If you try to build dead flat (as indeed the prototype did where they could) you will end up with 'proper' railway gradients that are enjoyable to factor in. The ideal arrangement is to have a 'main'line with normal gradients so that one can run trains without forever fiddling with the regulator and a branch with a gradient. Best of both worlds.
 
you know tag-youre right

but ive gotten the hang of simply adding a bit of lukewarm water of the course of the run

-and then empty the holding tank-refill partially and refuel, water etc etc-its more of a pain the dead of winter by far-i have a thermos with rather hot water handy-

im sure this tender fuel tank location was an overly cautious safety design

i now know when to add in order to adjust the pressure-and i dont mind it at all-other than doing i on the fly and with all my rc battery stuff stuffed into the tender, in the area outside the water bath tank 

one thing ive come to appreciate about the frank s is the one servo aspect using the direction control also as a variable steam inlet -altho ive fitted both throttle and direction servos-it really isnt necessary, as the direction inlet is redundant regarding steam control into the cylinders-(of course it was advertised to do a single servo-but i did two anyway before i fully understood i didnt need to-somehow i thought id be saving steam by fully setting the direction and controlling the actual throttle-which isnt the case) 

using the direction control  -its really very sensitive to control speed as well -and easier to use one handed by far-i think RC is by far the best improvement to the Frank S one can make if dealing with grades and the need to control speed -certainly makes shunting a lot more fun
 
stevedenver said:
you know tag-youre right

but ive gotten the hang of simply adding a bit of lukewarm water of the course of the run

-and then empty the holding tank-refill partially and refuel, water etc etc-its more of a pain the dead of winter by far-i have a thermos with rather hot water handy-

im sure this tender fuel tank location was an overly cautious safety design

i now know when to add in order to adjust the pressure-and i dont mind it at all-other than doing i on the fly and with all my rc battery stuff stuffed into the tender, in the area outside the water bath tank

one thing ive come to appreciate about the frank s is the one servo aspect using the direction control also as a variable steam inlet -altho ive fitted both throttle and direction servos-it really isnt necessary, as the direction inlet is redundant regarding steam control into the cylinders-(of course it was advertised to do a single servo-but i did two anyway before i fully understood i didnt need to-somehow i thought id be saving steam by fully setting the direction and controlling the actual throttle-which isnt the case)

using the direction control -its really very sensitive to control speed as well -and easier to use one handed by far-i think RC is by far the best improvement to the Frank S one can make if dealing with grades and the need to control speed -certainly makes shunting a lot more fun
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Indeed. This one we radio controlled and it worked very well. They were nicely made locos
 
What goes UP must come Down.

Now, if you want some fun, try dealing with a curve at the bottom of your downside slope. That is a problem I face every time I run. Since the part of my layout at the higher elevation is far wider than that at the lower elevation, I have an unavoidable curve right at the bottom of the transition slope regardless of direction. Further, leveling the layout is not a realistic option.

If I want to avoid serious scratches to my equipment, care is required when adjusting the regulator on non R/C locomotives. For locomotives with an R/C controlled regulator, there is no problem, so long as you are paying attention.

David Cooper of Sabre Steam specifically addresses this issue when he works with buyers to spec out new locomotives, and for that I'm thankful. David suggests R/C on only the regulator so the speed can be managed on the uphill and downhill slopes. The reason for the question is that the threads on the R/C regulator have a steeper pitch than the standard regulator.

Anyway, the challenges we face and address are endless, and where else can you find 15 or more enthusiasts who are willing to pitch in to help another modeler? It's what makes live steam railroading such an enjoyable hobby? Thumbs up to everyone:thumbup:

Regards,

Will
 
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