I need more power

T

tripp10538

Registered
I've been plugging away at making the final decision on which DCC system I'm going to choose, and to that end, this forum has been most helpful.

I have very basic but specific requirements, and just when I think I found the right system, I uncover more about DCC, its limitations, expectations, and I have to reevaluate.

In no particularly order, I need a system that can

1. be controlled by RR&C software, I plan on using software as the only throttle (except for testing and troubleshooting)

2. available train detection, so that the software can keep up with which train is where etc.

3. POWER, I just found out that my Aristocraft Alco FA-1s and Fb-1 with sound and smoke could draw as much as 3 amps each! I have 3 of them, and was hoping to occasionally use it triple headed as ABA, but at least double headed as AB. Any powered stock, even if its LED, could put me over 6amps. Digitrax is out of the running it seems as their detection blocks (using their DBL168) is maxed out at 6 amps. so back to the drawing board

Any ideas on a system that can handle these requirements, and hopefully don't require a second mortgage on my home to pay for them.
 
So you need a power supply 12V @ around 15amps? I use one of these in a weatherproof plastic box cranked up to 13.8V.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Silver-12V-15A-180W-Switching-Power-Supply-Transformer-For-LED-Strip-Light-TR-/141033669698?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item20d6430442
 
tripp10538 said:
3. POWER, I just found out that my Aristocraft Alco FA-1s and Fb-1 with sound and smoke could draw as much as 3 amps each! I have 3 of them, and was hoping to occasionally use it triple headed as ABA, but at least double headed as AB. Any powered stock, even if its LED, could put me over 6amps. Digitrax is out of the running it seems as their detection blocks (using their DBL168) is maxed out at 6 amps. so back to the drawing board

Any ideas on a system that can handle these requirements, and hopefully don't require a second mortgage on my home to pay for them.
Click to expand...
How about one of these - http://www.grsuk.com/Switching_DC_Power_Supply_15A_24V-M3849 . I have used one for the past 10 years. Dual output voltage and a lot of amps. Probably a few available 2nd hand. Handy as they are produced over your side of the pond and Crest also make the "Revolution" control system. An alternative to DCC ? Max.
 
sharpcreative said:
... I have Massoth DCC power supplies, which can each supply up to 12amps. However, my household power circuits will only take 10-15 amps. So if the power supply happened to share a power circuit with say a washing machine or an electric drill, there is a chance you could blow the fuses, if they were all running at the same time.
Click to expand...

Ah... but the 12 amps output supplied by each Massoth is only at say 24 volts, so the power requirement is 12x24 = around 300 watts. The current drawn through the mains circuit will be less. For example, if the main is 240 volts then 300 watts requires 300/240 or around 1.25 amps, not 12 amps.
 
tripp10358, there are certainly people out there with large systems that require many amps of power in total. They tend to run systems with boosters capable of 10-15 amps each, and they split the layout into separate power districts each with its own booster. That way, each power district can handle a power hungry train or two at a time, and you just have to ensure your trains are spread around the system.
 
Although they *can* each draw that type of current, I doubt you will reach it for any appreciable time. - Perhaps as you start a consist on a grade with many pieces of stock??
Other than that, it would be stall-current if there was a problem.. This should (hopefully!) be detected, and the power cut, by your central station(s).. Unless you run flat out, all lights and smoke blazing with track-powered Christmas lights on every car, you should be fine.
You might want to consider power districts, or a separate feed to points and accessory decoders?? - That way you can, if you wish, switch the track to DC, but still control points etc. from DCC.
 
PhilP said:
You might want to consider power districts, or a separate feed to points and accessory decoders?? - That way you can, if you wish, switch the track to DC, but still control points etc. from DCC.
Click to expand...
Yep, I have the points and accessories on a separate power bus so I can run DC track power, although under DCC I just wire the accessory power bus to the track power as I never run anything hungry enough to strain my 10 amp NCE system.
 
sharpcreative said:
" For example, if the main is 240 volts then 300 watts requires 300/240 or around 1.25 amps, not 12 amps."

Curses - I may have wasted my money! Still, I do have 3 power districts, served by a 1200Z and 2 1200B boosters. It does allow me to run multiple trains and a whole heap of lights and signals. When I was using the LGB power supplies with only up to 5 amps each to the track, I did sometimes have trains simply stop running due to insufficient power. I haven't had that since I upgraded, so I am happy!
Click to expand...

A friend of mine (sometimes on here) often draws 12A on his Massoth 1200Z with 4 trains running, and the system shuts down.

So usually we turn off loco lighting, and reset.

He has so far been unable to source a 1200B booster (in the old style case), so if anyone knows where he could obtain one then please let me know....
 
Gizzy said:
A friend of mine (sometimes on here) often draws 12A on his Massoth 1200Z with 4 trains running, and the system shuts down.

So usually we turn off loco lighting, and reset.

He has so far been unable to source a 1200B booster (in the old style case), so if anyone knows where he could obtain one then please let me know....
Click to expand...

PM headed your way...
 
I may not have been clear enough, although I do appreciate the feedback.

I WILL have several power districts, or sub districts, or whatever terminology you want to call it. Each section of isolated track has to be able to handle the load of the largest train running on the entire layout, right? If I have an ABA triple head, or even an AB double head, (with dual motor ALCO FA-1 and FB-1 with smoke and LED lights) I'm already over 6 amps before I even consider lighted stock cars. These 5 amp booster ideas just won't cut it. I NEED POWER, and I need it where the booster can be compatible with other components to be controlled by software and have train detection as well. Please assume I have 200 amps of power available (standard in US homes, and my layout is 1 meter from the main electric drop), so power availability is not a problem.

I'm looking for big boosters, +10amps, +12amps is better. Of those boosters, which ones can have detection (without limiting the amerage of detection sections since I have large amp draw on every part ogf my multi isolated layout.

And, of those boosters that meet above, which one can be run exclusiveily (minues testing and troublshootins) from software.

I am worried about a single train on a single power district drawing more than the max of the booster for that district.
 
Unless you are running many, many cars, you can disregard the LED load really..

I would get a loop of track down, and actually run three units, to see what current you actually pull..
Motors and smoke will be the main draw, but at prototypical speeds, I do not think you will be to near the limit.

Curves and grades may add to the load..
 
I am sceptical that you really need as much power as you are suggesting, however assuming that you do.

I think it is worth getting everything clear in your mind before purchasing anything.

Inductance type detectors such as the NCE DB-20 or the Dallee Trak-DT are generally rated at a much higher current that other types because they are completely isolated from track wiring.

12 Amps for the DB-20.

There are also intra red detectors which might work for you since you will be running indoors: http://www.heathcote-electronics.co.uk/irdetec.htm

You can use the DB-20 with an NCE system via their AIU unit. I believe NCE go up to 10Amps per command station/booster, but I believe they will also do special orders for higher power, ask them.

You could probably (but you would need to check) use the NCE DB-20 with a Massoth system and their Feedback Module. Also worth checking what the max current draw of the Massoth detector is but I have a feeling it is not as high as you want. http://www.massoth.com/index.en.html

I think you could use the Dallee Trak-DT with digitrax system via something like the Team Digital SIC24AD. http://www.teamdigital1.com/

You could use the Trak-DT with a Lenz system via their LR101. http://www.digital-plus.de/e/index.php

If you are going to use RR&Co Train controller software then because you can connect more than one (up to 12 I think!) command stations to your PC then you can have your feedback separated from the system powering your trains. You can use any system to power your trains unconstrained by any feedback requirements and just go for a really powerful system, such as a 12Amp Massoth. Use another small system for the feedback such as perhaps a LENZ LZV100 some LR101s and Trak-DTs.

You can get independent S88 based feedback systems http://www.ldt-infocenter.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=en:ldt-infocenter but I couldn’t find a detector that work work at a high current with this, but you may find something.
 
The Massoth Train Detection module can handle max 5A continuous,
 
Refering to reply posts 1 and 2 of this thread, can any electronics expert tell me the difference between the two power supplies that are linked from those posts - other than over £150
 
Thanks. But is that the arithmetical answer - whats the electrical significance in the price difference. Different windings on a transformer should not cost that much - should it?
 
I have a DC/DCC system and was originally just DC
I had three separate lines running from one Crest 13 amp supply (Max has put a link to it in a previous post).

That power supply enabled me, at the same time, to run a quad head ABBA USAT loco train with lights and sound on the mainline (with 1:10 incline),
a USAT diesel with sound and lights on the local line (also with 1:10 incline)
and a Bachmann 1:20.3 climax running on the quarry line also with sound and lights and smoke.

The Crest power supply hardly broke a sweat.

I now have built in the option of switching all the lines to DCC using a 12amp Massoth 1200Z so can run similar consist trains complete with sound decoders . It is fine with it though it seems to be nearer to its peak than the old Crest jobbie
 
stockers said:
Thanks. But is that the arithmetical answer - whats the electrical significance in the price difference. Different windings on a transformer should not cost that much - should it?
Click to expand...

Alan,

Not sure about the internals of a switched mode power supply but I doubt that there is a big wound transformer as there is in say a 1200Z - EU law is now in place to avoid the use of inefficient transformers, hence Massoth had to develop the 1200T switch mode power supply and retire the 1200Z and 1200B units to comply.

I would expect beefier components are used across the board hence driving the price up.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom