High CV values on Z21

T

teewye

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Hi,
I can't access high CV values using my Z21 on the program track. These are the values above 890 to allow me to check the program on a sound card. The decoders are connected together using the SUSI facility. The decoders are the PIKO 36122 and 36222. Can anyone tell me what I am missing
 
PIKO decoders are rebadged Massoth, usually an XL. PIKO sound modules are rebadged Uhlenbrock IS3 or IS4 which connect via SUSI to the rebadged XL. I always have difficulty reading those high CV values stored on the SUSI sound module, I have to attempt to read multiple times, sometimes ten or more, before I get a reading. Writing seems more consistent. It may just be my command station though (Lenz LZV100).
 
Greg Elmassian said:
There's usually a way to set an offset and then use a more normal "address", who makes Piko decoders? (I'm assuming the Piko manual gives no help)

If you don't know, read back the manufacturer's ID (CV 7 if I remember)

Greg
Click to expand...
Thanks Greg,
As I read the manual offset is for programming high CV Values. My difficulty is high CV addresses which should be available through the SUSI interface.
I have 2 PIKO locos nd the sound will not work on either of them.

Tom
 
idlemarvel said:
PIKO decoders are rebadged Massoth, usually an XL. PIKO sound modules are rebadged Uhlenbrock IS3 or IS4 which connect via SUSI to the rebadged XL. I always have difficulty reading those high CV values stored on the SUSI sound module, I have to attempt to read multiple times, sometimes ten or more, before I get a reading. Writing seems more consistent. It may just be my command station though (Lenz LZV100).
Click to expand...
Thanks Dave,
I have tried all the CV values as per the manual. I have even compared CV settings with a friend's loco where the sound still works. He can't access high CV values either.

Tom
 
If the sound does not work on either have you checked the motor decoder CV that determines whether it is using Massoth bus or SUSI bus? It is bit 4 of CV49, off is Massoth, on is SUSI. Also do you know what SUSI module it is, is it PIKO (Uhlenbrock)? If you have the manual see what F key is used to turn the sound on/off and sound fade on/off, maybe one or more of those is preventing sounds being heard.
 
idlemarvel said:
If the sound does not work on either have you checked the motor decoder CV that determines whether it is using Massoth bus or SUSI bus? It is bit 4 of CV49, off is Massoth, on is SUSI. Also do you know what SUSI module it is, is it PIKO (Uhlenbrock)? If you have the manual see what F key is used to turn the sound on/off and sound fade on/off, maybe one or more of those is preventing sounds being heard.
Click to expand...
Thanks idle marvel,
I've checked CV 49 which is set to 18. The SUSI module is PIKO. The F0 key is what turns the sound on or off. Value is stored in CV902 which I cannot read. CV7 inputting value 77 and value 111 to reset the sounds to factory work is not accepted as valid, so I wonder if both cards are U/S.. I've tried a range of programming voltages all to no avail.
 
Are you sure CV7 is used to reset sounds on the PIKO/Uhlenbrock card? I don't think so. It would resent the motor decoder, but that is not the same as the sound module.
F0 is not the default key used by PIKO or Uhlenbrock for sound on/off so if that is correct it must have been changed.
CV902 adjusts the sound volume not the F key attached. Max volume is CV902=255.
Have you got the PIKO sound module manual? If not you should be able to download one, or the Uhlenbrock one.
Cheers, Dave
 
Useful info @John S but AFAIK the sound produced by the PIKO/Uhlenbrock SUSI module is controlled by CV900 upwards. Some of the motor decoder (PIKO/Massoth) do have a bearing, such as the one that sets the bus to SUSI as discussed earlier. T teewye needs to be able to read and write those high CVs.

T teewye the Uhlenbrock documentation I have refers to some command stations being able to write but not read those high CVs (they mention Marklin) . Have you tried writing a CV like 902 for volume even though you may not be able to read it?
 
idlemarvel said:
Useful info @John S but AFAIK the sound produced by the PIKO/Uhlenbrock SUSI module is controlled by CV900 upwards. Some of the motor decoder (PIKO/Massoth) do have a bearing, such as the one that sets the bus to SUSI as discussed earlier. T teewye needs to be able to read and write those high CVs.

T teewye the Uhlenbrock documentation I have refers to some command stations being able to write but not read those high CVs (they mention Marklin) . Have you tried writing a CV like 902 for volume even though you may not be able to read it?
Click to expand...
Thanks Idlemarvel,
I haven't tried to write a value having been deterred by the fact I can't read. The CV I really need to read is CV903 - 915 which is where the function keys are assigned. If function f0 is on this inhibits the sound (as I read the manua)l.
What other programmers out there will read high values? Massoth? I have a SPROG which I haven't yet commissioned.

Cheers
 
I don't know which ones will read the high CVs, I guess Uhlenbrock will! I know mine (Lenz LZV100) does not, or at least not in any consistent fashion. It will write them though, so I suggest you select a sound and f-key you want to assign it to, and try writing that value repeatedly. I would write CV902 first though to make sure the volume is not set to zero.
Do you have the Uhlenbrock manual, it contains more details than the PIKO which I think is just an A4 sheet.
 
In case you can't find the Uhlenbrock manuals, here is a link to their English manuals in PDF format:
Uhlenbrock | Home
You want either
32300 IntelliSound 3-Module 32300 and 32304 with SUSI-Interface
or
32500/32504 IntelliSound 4 Module
depending on how old the "PIKO" sound module is. The Intellisound 4 is more modern, bigger memory, more sounds.
 
As I mentioned earlier, most manufacturers have a way to handle higher CV numbers on systems.

I use QSI a lot and they have an index scheme

Zimo has an offset register,

and guess what, so does Uhlenbrock:

Quote from the linked manual above:

CV values larger than 79 can be programmed only with the help of the offset register.
The offset register is CV65.
If CV65 contains a value > 0, then all following programmed values are calculated by multiplying the contents of CV65 by 4 and adding the result to the entered value.

Example
CV49 is to be programmed with a value of 157 then CV65 must first be programmed with the value of 25.
Subsequently, CV49 can be programmed with a value of 57.
The decoder places the value 4 * 25 + 57 into CV49.
Lastly CV65 should be set back to zero so the subsequent programming is done in the correct CV’s.

Note: When programming CV65 and CV66 the contents of the offset and page registers have no effect.


This should help your dilemma

Greg
 
Greg does that process only apply to "Programming with a Märklin Center" or would it apply to any command station? That part of the manual is not clear to me.
 
Any command station that can access CV 65 (if you have a command station that won't I would throw it away ha ha)

The entire point is that there needs to be a "Back door" for command stations that cannot handle really high numbered CV's .... that is not standard..

While direct access to all possible CV's would be nice, it's not needed to program devices. I have not seen a decoder yet that uses really high CV's that does NOT support some sort of offset/index so "normal" DCC systems can program them.

The NMRA standard allows for a 10 bit CV number, so CV 1023 should be possible for systems following the NMRA standard, but it's most likely a restriction in the Command Station and Cab programming.

Greg
 
Last edited:
Greg Elmassian said:
As I mentioned earlier, most manufacturers have a way to handle higher CV numbers on systems.

I use QSI a lot and they have an index scheme

Zimo has an offset register,

and guess what, so does Uhlenbrock:

Quote from the linked manual above:

CV values larger than 79 can be programmed only with the help of the offset register.
The offset register is CV65.
If CV65 contains a value > 0, then all following programmed values are calculated by multiplying the contents of CV65 by 4 and adding the result to the entered value.

Example
CV49 is to be programmed with a value of 157 then CV65 must first be programmed with the value of 25.
Subsequently, CV49 can be programmed with a value of 57.
The decoder places the value 4 * 25 + 57 into CV49.
Lastly CV65 should be set back to zero so the subsequent programming is done in the correct CV’s.

Note: When programming CV65 and CV66 the contents of the offset and page registers have no effect.


This should help your dilemma

Greg
Click to expand...
Thanks Greg, but I don't see how. What you have quoted is also in the PIKO manual supplied with the loco. However this refers to values. My problem is with addresses.
cheers
Tom
 
Sorry, I saw "values" but read "number", you are exactly correct, apparently they have CV's that store more than an 8 bit number... wow, that is crazy.

The offset register to enter higher CV ADDRESSES is CV 66, as below: (here's both the CV NUMBER and CV value instructions in one place.)

Page-Register for inputting CV-Numbers greater than 79:
  • CV addresses larger than 79 can only be programmed with the help of the page register, CV66.
  • If CV66 has a value higher than 0, then the contents of CV66 times 64 will be added to every address entered.
  • The entered value must lie in the range 1 to 64.
  • When leaving Motorola programming mode the page register (CV66) is automatically reset to zero.
Example
  • If CV82 is to be programmed with a value of15, then CV66 must first be programmed with a value of 1.
  • Subsequently, CV18 can be programmed with a value of 15.
  • The decoder places the value 15 into CV82, which is derived from multiplying the contents of the CV66 (in example 1) by 64 (thus 64) and then adding the entered CV address (18).


Offset-Register for entering CV values greater than 79
  • CV values larger 79 can be programmed only with the help of the offset register.
  • The offset register is CV65.
  • If CV65 contains a value > 0, then all following programmed values are calculated by multiplying the contents of CV65 by 4 and adding the result to the entered value.
  • When leaving Motorola programming mode the offset register (CV65) is automatically reset to zero.
Example
  • CV49 is to be programmed with a value of 157, then CV65 must first be programmed with the value of 25.
  • Subsequently, CV49 can be programmed with a value of 57.
  • The decoder places the value 4 * 25 + 57 into CV49.

Note: When programming CV65 and CV66 the contents of the offset and page registers have no effect.


Good enough? Greg
 
So Greg if I understand this correctly, for a more specific example, to program CV 902 (volume) to 255 (max volume) you would have to set:

CV 65 to 3 (because 3*64+63=255)
CV 66 to 14 (because 14*64+6=902)
CV 6 to 63 (because 6 and 63 are the remainders of the calculations above)

I guess your handset has to be in page register mode or some such?

I'll try this on my Lenz when I get a chance.
 
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