Frank 'S' speaker selection

[Tim Brien]

I am researching info prior to ordering several Massoth decoders. Massoth recommend the 57mm 3 watt speaker for the Frank 'S' installation. I have two locomotives to chip with both being decoder interface (one is analogue and the other factory fitted type 1 LGB decoders).

This morning I dismantled the analogue locomotive and for the life of me cannot see where a 57mm large magnet (3 watt) speaker could fit (Massoth recommended speaker for this locomotive). I am considering the 50mm speaker (#8241060) as I feel it could be fitted with the rear section of the speaker (magnet end) sealed into the boiler extension behind the smokebox. This way the boiler moulding/smokebox would act as an enclosure and the diaphragm would face the interior of the loco body. There seem to be enough 'holes' to allow sound to escape. I had thought of a tender installation but a similar problem exists - where would the 3 watt speaker fit? The thinner 2 watt speaker may fit under the coal load, but then holes would need to be drilled in the coal moulding for sound to escape. This would then impact visually on the coal load moulding.

Any thoughts based on experience? Also, is it possible to fit an 'L' and an 'XLS' in the same locomotive? At present the 'XLS' is on special and an 'LS' plus speaker will cost more. I am thinking that for a powered tender locomotive maybe the driving characteristics would be different. Would it be better to stick with a 'LS' in the locomotive and an 'L' in the tender. I am thinking that they would have similar motor driving values (accel/decel/spped curves).

 

[Zerogee]

My Nicki & Frank S (the blue one) has an XL in the loco, and an XLS in the tender - I bought it from another forum member - he fitted the chips, and then he had to do a certain amount of fiddling with the CVs (mostly by trial and error, I think) to stop the tender motor trying to push the loco along! The advantage of the two chips is that you CAN adjust the driving characteristics of both motors separately to synch their speeds, because otherwise the tender will try to run a lot faster than the loco, with much attendant wheelspinning and risk of gear wear.

Jon.

 

[Tim Brien]

Jon,
many thanks. The speaker then must be in the tender. I think an 'XL' is 'overkill for my application, so may go with the 'L' and 'LS' decoders. I really do not want to mix a 'L' with an 'XLS'.

For info, my factory decoder green Frank 'S' has two type 1 LGB decoders. The locomotive decoder start voltage is set to '0' and the tender start voltage '5'. On analogue they run in synch with each other. Not having DCC as yet I do not know what their speed differential will be on digital. The type 1's will be ditched in due course for sound.

 

[Zerogee]

Tim - just a thought, as your Frank already has the chips installed, if they seem to be working OK then why bother to change them? Surely just adding a Massoth "S" module for the sound would be much cheaper than buying two new decoders?

Jon.

 

[Tim Brien]

Jon,
not sure if the type 1 chip is limited to 14 speed steps on non-MTS central stations. I want to run a minimum 28 speed steps. I just opened the tender with the type 1 chip. There is no room for a speaker. Looks like the speaker is going in the smokebox. I can utilise the decoder interface cables, so not a complete loss.

I prefer the 'L' and 'LS' combination. The 'S' is only marginally cheaper than a 'LS'. I think that there may be a bit of a clash with the 'S' and the type 1 chip. I regard the type 1's as 'throwaways'. I want to use the 'S' with an "XL" on a few installations utilising the SUSI bus. This gives me the higher wattage output of the 'S' (1.5 - 3 watt) as compared to the 1 watt output of the "XLS".

 

[Nemo]

Tim
I fitted a Massoth XLS decoder into the loco and got the speaker in as well. My speaker fits behind the firebox door. The XLS powers both motors through the 4 wire connecting cable. 2 wires for pick up and 2 wires for motor power. The only thing in the tender is a bit of extra lead weight. The down side is that the tender lights do not work when the loco is running in reverse, however I carn't justify 60 quid just for that option. I seen Frank S locos with sound fitted in the tender and they don't sound right, in that the loco goes by then the tender makes the chuffing noise.

 

[stockers]

I did similar to you Nemo but moved the weight and put the speaker (57mm) in the tender. Cut the weight in half and put it in the two side wells (you'll see them) in the chassis. I retained the original cuircit board for the front lights and 5V smoke and fed it direct from the wheel pickup. Obviously, you have to disconect the motor from the front board. Only small problem is the front lights are always on, even in reverse. I can live with that.

 

[Tim Brien]

I prefer the two decoder option in that one is able to fine tune the speed of the unladen tender. I thought that it would be a relatively easy loco due its size, but quickly saw that it will present a challenge (decoder placement and wiring no problem, just the speaker issue).

One question comes to mind in that the stock umbilical electrical connection prohibits the analogue (unchipped) tender from operating in analogue when not connected to locomotive . The decoder equipped tender on the factory chipped Frank 'S' runs without the connector. I like coupled motors to enhance power pickup. Will I need to alter the electricals in the loco main board to enable digital running with the electrical connector in place?

 

[Zerogee]

I don't know the full technical answer, but I'd be very wary of leaving all the original circuitry connected when you re-chip the loco and tender. As far as I'm aware, the wiring connection between the two is for speed synching purposes on analogue, which is why it isn't used on digital. If you want to couple the power pickups for extra reliability (a good idea, certainly) then I'd be tempted to run a pair of new wires between loco and tender to join the brown and white track pickup feeds from both power units - then both decoders are being fed power from ALL pickups, but each decoder only feeds its own motor via the green and yellow wires.

Jon.

 

[steve parberry]

When i did mine i fitted a 40mm speaker under the footplate with a bit of packing and used two chips due to the tender running slightly faster, so i reduced the top speed of the tender on the speed curve.

Hope it helps to confuse you a bit more:wits:

 

[stockers]

I don't know the full technical answer, but I'd be very wary of leaving all the original circuitry connected when you re-chip the loco and tender. Jon.

I agree, I suggested that the motor was disconnected from the board - it only now feeds front lights and smoke in my application.

 

[Tim Brien]

Alan and Jon,
I will trace the electical connection between the tender and the locomotive to enable disconnecting the electrical 'load' in the main circuit board that slows down the tender. The electrical connection will then just transmit track power between the two decoders. I assume the rear decoder (tender) could be written with a CV value to enable 'on' when in reverse, with no 'forward' signal enabled. Conversely for the forward decoder.

 

[stockers]

I asume you a refering to the lights for forward and reverse. Simples - you wire the front lights to the front light output in one decoder and the rear lights to the rear lights output on the other decoder.

 

[jose07]

Hi,

I just bought a second hand Nicki S. locomotive (LGB-22261). I would like to add sound but keeping, if it is possible, the original LGB chips in. Do you have a comment on this ?.

Following this thread, I understood that this loco has problems with two decos, because the tender tries to overrun the loco. Would this be resolved if you program the two decos with two different addresses and then program them as a consist ?. Just a curiosity.

Thanks for your comments.
Jose

 

[Zerogee]

Hi,

I just bought a second hand Nicki S. locomotive (LGB-22261). I would like to add sound but keeping, if it is possible, the original LGB chips in. Do you have a comment on this ?.

Following this thread, I understood that this loco has problems with two decos, because the tender tries to overrun the loco. Would this be resolved if you program the two decos with two different addresses and then program them as a consist ?. Just a curiosity.

Thanks for your comments.
Jose

Hi Jose,

For the sound, I'd use a Massoth S module, and simply connect its brown and white wires directly to the track power connections of the loco or tender, depending on where you decide to put the module. On LGB onboard decoders there should be two pins that provide direct track power, you can simply plug the connectors from the S module onto these. When you program the loco address, all the decoders including the S should take up the new address.

Jon.

 

[jose07]

I open the tender of my Frank S. #22621 (not Nicki S. as I posted before) just to find out that there is no deco installed. However there is a decoder interface with 6 pins, and the description booklet states that it is ready to fit an LGB deco 55020 with a cable 55026. This deco 55020 is no longer available, does any of you know if 55027 can be used instead ?. In case of trying a Massoth LS and L, do you know the wiring correspondance between the deco and the 6 pins interface ?.
Thanks for your replies.
Best regards
Jose

 

[mbendebba]

Jose: You can install the L decoder in lieu of 55020 and use either the 55026 cable or the Massoth 8312061 decoder interface cable. The 55020 and the Massoth L decoder have identical pin configuration, and the cables are also identical. The Massoth L decoder offer a few more features and is less expensive than either the 55020 or its current replacement the 55021 from LGB. More importantly, the L decoder is upgradable(firmware updates).
Since this is a two motor locomotive, you should consider the XL decoder instead of 2 L decoders. You can still use the six pin interface cables, and leave the current electronics undisturbed. The XL has more features and is less expensive than the 55027 from LGB, and also upgradable (firmaware updates).
For sound, I would attach a Massoth S decoder to the XL via the SUSI interface.

 

[Tim Brien]

Jose,
with a single decoder you may not be able to 'cure' the speed differential between the locomotive and the tender. Two decoders will give a measure of independent adjustment to try to match the two drives together.