Cumbres & Toltec or Durango & Silverton

spoz

spoz

What do I do? What I'm told by SWMBO
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It looks like I might have a day or so off in Colorado next (northern) summer; if so I'd like to do a bit of D&RGW narrow gauging - but which line? I doubt if I'll get to do both, and I can't seem to pick which might be the better. Likely that SWMBO will be with me, so scenery becomes almost as important as the train trip. Anybody got any preference, or do I just toss a coin?

Steve
 
I haven't done the Cumbres line, but the Silverton trip really is great. I suspect it is better scenery for SWMBO as it is beside the river for much of the way, and has a stop at Silverton for 'shopping'.

That said, others who I know that have done both, recommend Cumbres! But I think that's just because it is longer and therefore 'better' for train buffs. Personally, I don't think quantity is always better. I'd had enough by the time we had been all day to Silverton and got back to Durango.
 
I've been to both.
The D&S (last there in 2007) can be a bit sterile at times as it is a slick and very commercial operation, but it does have the river and you do a return trip over the full line.
The C&T (last there in 2005), in my opinion, is more like The Real Thing and gives the impression of being a far more laid-back operation. It is impossible to do a return trip over the full line in one day (you'll either start or end your day on a bus) but the 8 miles of 1 in 25 (4%) climbing to Cumbres out of Chama behind (sometimes) double-headed K36s makes this one my favourite of the two. I'm overdue for another visit, I think.
 
Cumbres and Toltec every time!
The Durango and Silverton has become very regimented. You have to remain seated st all times, you're not allowed on the open vestibule ends and you're not allowed from coach to coach.
Cumbres and Toltec much more relaxed. Can move from coach to coach without restriction and to the open gondola plus refresents available on the train.
Travel from Chama to St Antinito, not the other way
To get the steep climb out of Chama to Cumbres Pass summit. Avoid the traditional turkey dinner if you can, honestly, it was dire!
Great full day out, I'd do it again given the chance.
 
First of all you've got to clarify whether you want to travel on the train, or photo/video the train. If it's travelling on the train, then I would say the C&T is the better bet, but only just. Silverton is maybe a little better for the stopover. If you are wanting to phot/video, neither has a lot of linesiding opportunities, all the really good bits are remote from roads, although there are some really good spots on the climb from Chama eastbound to the summit. On the D&S of course, depending on the nearer you are to the high season, there are more trains. There can be four on some days on the D&S. And having said that about the Cumbres Summit, the High Line on the D&S has to be seen, it's walkable from Rockwood. The C&T, unless things are improved from my last visit, there is just the one train a day in each direction with a meet at Osier, which is a bit of a drive. I've done both lines summer winter and fall, this last the most stunning for colour on the Cumbres, the aspen display incredible, and I've done charter trains on both lines several times. As has been said, the C&T is the more laid back, easy going, wander round the loco depot and so on, the D&S much more formal and organised. Both are out of this world

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If you are near the Denver area, another railroad to consider is the Georgetown Loop Railroad.

http://georgetownlooprr.com/ -Keith.
 
Durango and Silverton both have decent hotels and restaurants to eat and stay at if you are going to overnight it.

Chama and Antonio not so much, I have heard that some of the businesses in both towns are actually hostile to the RR, stupid move as the RR is pretty much all thats keeping these places in existence.

If you do the D&S one way to get around the movement and refreshment barriers is to upgrade to one of the more premier level coaches that have refreshments available inside the car your traveling in. Costs a little more but not that much more.

One thing to consider, the C&T is more laid back but its also more of a shoestring operation, so you might want to consider riding it, because it may not be there is a few years.
 
vsmith said:
One thing to consider, the C&T is more laid back but its also more of a shoestring operation, so you might want to consider riding it, because it may not be there is a few years.
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Possibly a good point, but I really think the C&T passed their crisis point a few years back and that, having got over that, they are recovering. The railroad is owned by the states of New Mexico and Colorado, whereas the D&S is owned, and very ably managed, by a man and wife team. Yes, there are people, especially in Durango, who object to the dirty smoke and steam. These are sort of college type kids etc, who totally fail to realise that if you took the D&S out of Durango, the town would lose its way. That's what I think, and I ain't the only one.
Having done hours of video on both lines, savoured them both under all sorts of conditions, I rest my case m'lud
 
well since you asked
heres my take
Durango is in and of itself more fun-more places to eat, stay
the RR has simply spectacular Colorado scenery huge rockies , sheer cliff, dramatic-unique

cumbres
Antonito is a SHI(*&Hole-lousy accommodations, and I too experienced downright "Little Storping"(Aevegers) hostility-its a redneck-like town
the railroad is INDEED far more authentic (not the coaches but over all feel)-and yes you do get to knock around -

I love trains, and you trundle along at 20mph, and its mostly high desert scenary, (which I love, but after an hour, ive had enough)
the pass is nice, as is the dining facility, chama yards are wonderful, provided you have time to walk around , and you likely wont because youll be shooed onto the return bus ride, (which is so quick youll not believe it)

I think either would be a nice train ride
I think for the overall experience, and if you want a bit of nicety, Durango no question

and remember , while I am a native, and I must have biases, I do have a good instinct about where to stay and eat, and Antonito was a ....less than great experience, I got the 'best' hotel in town, and it was dirty-the bottom line is that they don't get enough trade to actually care-I could be simply subject of a bad experience,

durango isn't close to anything (not is Antonito)
but If you like alpine like surrounding, with the old west feel, plus the amazing pueblo cliff dwellings, I think youll be happy-Durango has great bars, great mex food, and is a definitely more upscale-not vail or aspen, but nice

I guess its whatever experience you prioritize-if you have a missus, I think .....Durango, Disney -like regimentation or not

.if it were just me, on a long day, wanting to be 'on the train' and be able to walk around..mebbe once more, but I am still close to 'once was plenty'
 
Glen yeah a few yuppies who bought condos next to the tracks are griping about getting soot on their lawn furniture, but the D&S has a massive support from the local community. Sort of like the jackwagons here that bought houses at next to the Naval air station here and then complained about jets blasting off at 1AM. :rolf:

What I was referring to was the C&T, where there has been friction amongst a small group of locals who gripe that everything in the town is becoming focused on the RR tourism, like theres ANYTHING else there to bring in revenue for the town. :@;)
 
I have to say that we arrived in Chama on the evening of the annual Chama rodeo!
I've never seen so many pickups with rifle boxes across the back of the cab, BUT we never experienced any animosity at all, just the opposite, everyone was unfailingly friendly, even the cowboy who turned up for breakfast at the Boxcar Cafe, on. Horse, complete with leather chaps, Winchester rifle in saddle holster, and a pair of six guns (please leave guns outside the cafe) and spurs!
I rather liked Chama, and that is the end to start from, Antonio looked to be a collection of shacks, and nothing else!
 
alec dawe said:
The Durango and Silverton has become very regimented. You have to remain seated st all times, you're not allowed on the open vestibule ends and you're not allowed from coach to coach.
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That's bad news. It was 10 years ago when we rode it and much more relaxed.
 
Thanks for all the comments; it still seems pretty evenly balanced - a more regimented shorter trip against a longer but freer experience. I lean to the latter I think but suspect Her Ladyship would prefer the shorter round trip with shopping in Silverton. Should be an interesting negotiation! - and more research to be done. The Georgetown Loop also looks interesting; but if the trip comes off I will be in Colorado Springs rather than Denver and I'm not sure I am likely to be able to get more than one in.

Steve
 
if you're in the "Springs",
here are some thoughts-
unlike the UK or the Continent, things are rather widely spaced.

You should check my estimated, but you're about 2 hours from Georgetown , and id guess a bit more from Antonito, and about 5 hours from Durango.

I know Georgetown well, its a short ride, id say about 45 minutes down and back (or up and back) with stops-mine tour will add another hour-its worth it imho. They were running either a 2-6-2 rod (now gone) , a porter diesel (big) and in the shoulder seasons, a miserable little ex Army industrial diesel switcher. I don't know if the shay is up and about. THE ROW on the old Colorado Central later C and S ROW, and the rebuilt bridge is spectacular. As I mentioned, this is a short ride comparatively. The drive up will take you into the mountains, via Idaho Springs, and some tunnels. Weekend traffic may be something to be avoided, as Colorado has a lot of infra structure work going on, and its a PITA when you add weekend volume. I try never to drive to the mountains on the weekends unless its before 7 am. Mountain trips are the thing here. Also, if I didn't live here, I think I might not like our road signage. Often if you don't already know they way, I think the signs might not always give enough help, especially in the urban corridor through Denver. Tip, google your directions first and get a step by step, or better, get an onboard satellite map with vocal with your rental car. Actually, do both in case you lose satellite.

Georgetown is small and pleasant and 'quaint' -one of my favorites, but that's because it's close to Denver, ie little time and effort. It has tourists, but unless its fourth of July, I have never been there when its too crowded. It also sports Hotel de Paris, a famous old west 'oasis' for the luxury accommodations in the early west, run by Louis DuPuy. What makes it unique is that this was owned by a single family after Dupuy, and was not renovated (much) and offers a great glimpse into authentic period décor and fixtures-tour takes all of forty minutes and is central in town and inexpensive ($5).

In the Springs, you could also ride the cog railway, Manitou and pike peak, on swiss rail busses-yawn...., and tour cave of the winds -a large interesting cave that should be hugely alive given our recent monsoons.

Be mindful of travel time out here. Mountain driving even when dry and clear slow things, even for those of us that drive them regularly.
It's nothing to drive several hours to some locations.

OTOH, a drive will let you see how the Colonials have 'evolved'... There is much to be said for stopping in the small mountain towns, for a burger or Mexican food, ice cream or, sometimes micro breweries, some of which are truly excellent (and this isn't by "US industrial swill" standards) . These areas don't have the populations or traffic to support the larger chain restaurants, so you can get some , sometimes, decent fair and rural flavor.
 
mrcheddar said:
I visited the D&S, the C&T and the Georgetown Loop last year. All the comments above are spot on!
I stayed at the Branding Iron Motel in Chama, it is nothing fancy but clean, spacious and friendly.

Here are https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151068819299044.457562.506409043&type=1&l=86b445f940 < Link To my pictures from my Colorado trainspotting trip and http://youtu.be/WAj_AE2Xkzw < Link To a short video of the Cumbres and Toltec.
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Just looked at your photos Adrian. The night shot #18 is superb!
 
This is another goodly thread on the three places that I am relishing the idea of and planning to visit in the next year or two.

The info here is very useful as the distances covered when visiting all three will be certainly a little longer than what we have to do when getting around from one Narrow Gauge line (or standard gauge) to another in UK!
 
well should you actually make it, and im not in trial,
ill introduce myself, buy you some local beer (which is superb even by UK standards in some of our micro breweries, of which we have almost 50) and mex, or whatever, if you're in Denver.

Don't forget a quick trip to nearby Golden to the Colo RR museum, simply, a large outside 1:1 trainset with roundhouse and loop and many things to look at. Coors, however, is only a last thought, in terms of beer, simply another brewery , not unlike Guinness in London, but for the obvious LOL.
steve
 
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