Considerations when buying a new Loco (LGB / PIKO / ...)

[Andrew_au]

So I'm looking to add a new loco to my layout. Wishlist:

• Modern-ish Diesel or Electric
• Twin bogie (with dual motor)
• Reliable
• Hook & look couplings
• Not under-powered - needs to be able to pull 8-10 cars on a mostly level track.
• Performs well with generic DCC system (i.e. not tied to features from a specific manufacturer's command station)
• Preference for 1:25 (Euro narrow gauge) over 1:32 (US standard guage) scale
• Outdoors layout. Trains are parked under shelter, but must be reasonably robust against insects / cats / stray water & wind / small children / ... .
• Existing yard area makes heavy use of R1 curves, so needs to be able to handle these at low speeds. Mainline contains a mix of (LGB) R2-R5.

Beyond the above, I'm fairly flexible. I have thought about buying the motors & electronics and kit-bashing a Australian style loco, but I think the body-work is a long way beyond my current abilities (especially given that the materials need to be somewhat weather-proof). I haven't yet decided whether I plan to pull passenger or freight, though I would be happy with a passenger rail-car set.

Most of the stuff available locally seems to be LGB, with the ability to order in PIKO.

LGB has a reputation for reliable hardware. On paper, I'm not overly impressed with the feature sets of their modern decoders / sound modules, but happy to be corrected on this. Most new units start at over $AU 2000, but there are a few old stock locos (4+ years old) on clearance for $AU 1000. Anything that is not a "starter set" loco tends to come complete with DCC / lights / sound / etc.

PIKO locos can be obtained for a lot less money. I can get a current model "electric" loco for under $AU 1k, without DCC but with all the necessary mounts to fit a DCC decoder and sound system. I consider "without DCC" to possibly be an advantage because I can add my own choice of decoder and sound module. However, the PIKO manuals worry me - they recommend that every 30 hours or so of running that I open the bottom plate of the motor housing and oil the gears. In contrast, LGB motors seem to be "sealed for life", where "life" can be measured in decades.

So, any thoughts or recommendations?

• stock decoders vs 3rd party decoders
• reliability and longevity of particular product lines
• anything else relevant

 

[phils2um]

I favor LGB but have no experience with Piko so cannot really comment on one over the other. Any LGB two motor loco will easily meet your desires straight out of the box.

My thoughts on decoders.

First and foremost - don't even consider separate driving and sound decoders if you plan on using track power. Even if you don't want sound now, you may in the future. Whether or not a speaker is hooked up makes no difference to the decoder.

The current MLGB multi-protocol sound decoders are very good and I'm completely satisfied with them. The whole key for trouble free running on DCC seems to be the initial setup of the MLGB decoders. Changing CVs on a DCC programming track is no problem after you get past the initial setup. But you need to be satisfied with the existing functions for a particular loco. If you want to add features to an MLGB OEM multi-protocol decoder later, for example diesel exhaust, good luck.

Installing you own decoders are a good way to go if you really want to customize your loco but the wiring can be a nightmare. Also, you will need the programmer for whatever brand you select to take full advantage of the decoder not to mention loading the correct sound files. Figure at least another US$ 150 for the programmer. I have personal experience with installing Massoth and ESU sound decoders in my older LGB locos. Both manufacturers have quality products. I don't have experience with Zimo decoders but from what others say, they make a quality product too.

 

[dunnyrail]

You talk about wanting a DCC loco, have you thought about annolder 2nd hand LGB product. I have bought a few and with LGB long lifetime reliability you would be really unlucky to get a bad one if you are careful. Not sure if tyere are any retailers your neck of the woods that you could go, try, buy from but if there are may be an answer or at least another option to check out.

 

[PhilP]

With an older loco, look at the wheels / underside..
If the wheels are through to the brass, the skates worn (easy swap) the bottom of the motor-blocks filthy or heavily worn.. Then walk away. - There will be another one for sale later..

Piko, in my opinion) are not as robust, and seem (steam outline) to be a bit of a pain, to get apart. - Just different, and I deal with less of them, I guess?

I am not familiar with Australian Motive-power.. Having said the above, would a Piko BR-218, look anything like a local engine?
Perhaps with a repaint, and the sun behind it?

PhilP

 

[Madman]

LGB today, LGB tomorrow, LGB forever.....

 

[Neil Robinson]

For what it's worth I get the impression that generally LGB models are of narrow gauge prototypes and Piko's G Scale models standard gauge prototypes.

 

[ARIA31]

I have USA trains, LGB, Bachmann and Piko locomotives. And an R1 railroad.

If you can afford of them, take LGB, no disappointment, very long lasting, designed for R1

Piko is also quite strong and very powerfull.

USA trains , my favorite brand, are quite powerfull and well detailed. However I found the hardware litle bit britle.
R1 only for Alco S4 or GP38 /GP9 if only one hook is linked to first wagon.

Bachmann has currently a very limited offer in Large Scale. 4 6 0 on R1 is sometimes frustrating or stressing !

 

[Greg Elmassian]

From the OP:

• Modern-ish Diesel or Electric
• Twin bogie (with dual motor)
• Reliable
• Hook & look couplings
• Not under-powered - needs to be able to pull 8-10 cars on a mostly level track.
• Performs well with generic DCC system (i.e. not tied to features from a specific manufacturer's command station)
• Preference for 1:25 (Euro narrow gauge) over 1:32 (US standard guage) scale
• Outdoors layout. Trains are parked under shelter, but must be reasonably robust against insects / cats / stray water & wind / small children / ... .
• Existing yard area makes heavy use of R1 curves, so needs to be able to handle these at low speeds. Mainline contains a mix of (LGB) R2-R5.

So the R1 requirement and the 1:25 preference, means European style LGB "scale", other than LGB and Piko, the Bachmann 45 ton center cab might be the only other candidate since it is "bigger" than 1:29. But, it seems that it is out of production.

Bachmann large scale 45-ton industrial diesel switcher is a hauling machine | ModelRailroader.com

Model Railroader is the world's largest magazine on model trains and model railroad layouts. We feature beginner and advanced help on all model railroading scales, including layout track plans, model railroad product reviews, model train news, and model railroad forums.

www.trains.com

Greg

 

[phils2um]

Bachmann 45 ton center cab might be the only other candidate since it is "bigger" than 1:29. But, it seems that it is out of production.

Caution: thread drift!

I've considered buying one of these to repaint as it reminds me of a GE 45 ton U.S.Army Transportation Corps loco on Rock Island Arsenal back when I lived there as a kid in 1965-67. One set of tracks to the north end of the island, went right through the side yard of the house we were quartered in. They were not in very good repair. Many of the ties were so rotted you could pull the spikes out by hand. You can guess how I know . The loco spent most of its time shunting around the Arsenal's industrial buildings on the south end of the island. But I did see it pass by our house one time in the 2 1/2 years we lived there. There was a very interesting combined road and rail swing bridge that connected the island to Davenport iowa. The bridge could rotate to allow barge traffic through Mississippi River Lock & Dam No. 15. For those that might be interested try a Google Earth of "Rock Island Arsenal" or "Lock and Dam Number 15".

 

[Rhinochugger]

From the OP:

• Modern-ish Diesel or Electric
• Twin bogie (with dual motor)
• Reliable
• Hook & look couplings
• Not under-powered - needs to be able to pull 8-10 cars on a mostly level track.
• Performs well with generic DCC system (i.e. not tied to features from a specific manufacturer's command station)
• Preference for 1:25 (Euro narrow gauge) over 1:32 (US standard guage) scale
• Outdoors layout. Trains are parked under shelter, but must be reasonably robust against insects / cats / stray water & wind / small children / ... .
• Existing yard area makes heavy use of R1 curves, so needs to be able to handle these at low speeds. Mainline contains a mix of (LGB) R2-R5.

So the R1 requirement and the 1:25 preference, means European style LGB "scale", other than LGB and Piko, the Bachmann 45 ton center cab might be the only other candidate since it is "bigger" than 1:29. But, it seems that it is out of production.

Bachmann large scale 45-ton industrial diesel switcher is a hauling machine | ModelRailroader.com

Model Railroader is the world's largest magazine on model trains and model railroad layouts. We feature beginner and advanced help on all model railroading scales, including layout track plans, model railroad product reviews, model train news, and model railroad forums.

www.trains.com

Greg

I seem to recall that the 45 tonner struggles with R1 - not sure but I saw one at a very minor exhibition once, and something wasn't going right, and I suspected tight curves.

I run one quite happily, but on nothing less than R3s

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Yep, did not verify curvature, but some research indicates it will make it around R1, but not super happy, but most likely there could be some simple mods to relax it.

It was the only loco I could think of that met the criteria that was NOT LGB or Piko.

Greg

 

[Andrew_au]

Piko, in my opinion) are not as robust, and seem (steam outline) to be a bit of a pain, to get apart

Piko is also quite strong and very powerfull.

For example, if I were to buy a basic PIKO electric loco and install my own choice of decoder, do I end up with a reliable solution or something that will need frequent repairs after a couple of years of operation?

I could also install a stock PIKO decoder and sound system, but the third party offerings seem to provide a lot more functionality for a comparable price. My impression is that the main attraction of a stock decoder is not needing to deal with pin compatibility when mounting, but the major 3rd party manufacturers seem on the ball with providing adaptors between their decoders and modern pin-outs.

It was the only loco I could think of that met the criteria that was NOT LGB or Piko.

Thanks for looking. I'm not opposed to buying other than LGB or PIKO, but they are harder to get in Australia. I'm also pretty aware of what I'm getting (and not getting) with LGB, but less so with other brands. I've seen a lot of comparative reviews of track, but not so much for locos (or rolling stock).

 

[ARIA31]

" if I were to buy a basic PIKO electric loco and install my own choice of decoder...."

I did that on my Piko Krokodil , with a Massoth decoder while the Piko one was not available.
I did that because it was explained it is simple to open the loco roof and access to all the wiring. (it was the case)
With the help of a specific Massoth data sheet I did it. (I am not expert and by far)

The point is to open the Piko loco, find all screws, unlock some parts, move the parts without breaking any thing.
On this forum you have many, many experts who are doing that daily !

I believe the loco you are considering might have been designed to make this access easy. (As she is one of the latest).
So having checked that you will be able to do it.

Don't worry about the Piko locos solidity.

At last they have a good after sales . In Germany.
I see you are a little bit far away !!!!

 

[trammayo]

I like the 45 tonner and I don't have any problems with R1's. I would have, I suppose, if my stock had prototypical end beam mounted couplers but virtually all my rolling stock has truck mounted couplings. The picture below shows the loco after I severely pruned it in width and height as it was big and seemed out of place with the rest of my motive power!

 

[Dan]

I do use the Zimo decoders and use my system which is also Zimo to set up many different engines and club members engines. These decoders have a full specification listed that many others ignore. 30 volts DCC for all HO and large scale decoders and can withstand a voltage spike that is higher than that. Spec'd output is for 4 ohm speakers at 10 watts large sclae decoders plus largescale decoders have 6 amp running and 10 amp surge. See zimo.at for downloading their decoder manual and getting all the specs. They do make a plugin decoder for the manufacturers that have the standard interface.
Also note that almost any MFG decoder can run on any modern DCC system. It is the older LGB MTS systems and original LGB decoders that can have issues with some systems, but my Zimo system will run all these versions (serial interface and only 14 speed steps). I am sure some of the other systems can do this also.

 

[Southwestforests]

Bachmann has currently a very limited offer in Large Scale. 4 6 0 on R1 is sometimes frustrating or stressing !

And that 4-6-0 will, as in WILL, assist you in perfecting your track laying and maintaining finesse.

Before Mike retired and moved away he'd ask me to bring a couple of my 4-6-0's over to check his track before having an open house on his garden railway since everything he had was a B-B bogie locomotive, diesels and Shays. And he had no curves as sharp as R1.
We'd usually find 2 or 3 spots where track needed attention before those 4-6-0 were satisfied.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Post #1 specifies Diesel or Electric.

 

[tac foley]

A USA Trains GP7 or 9 or even the GP38 might just do with a squint. A contact of mine in NZ has successfully modded his GP38 to approximate to an NZR loco. On the other hand, Riekus down in Sarf Efrica batch-builds SAR locos and rolling stock in 1/24th scale - running on 34mm track to replicate SAR Cape Gauge.

 

[Greg Elmassian]

Post #1 indicates preference for Euro style loco in 1;25 .... but I think I agree this could be done with a little bashing...

But, he wants to buy a loco, not bash one.

This is why I recommended the largish Bachmann loco... I seem to remember accucrafte made a similar loco in 1:20.3 or thereabouts, but I don't think it was a good runner, and clearly not cheap.

Greg

 

[Gerard]

Be very carefull with respect to R1 bends in your layout and switches. Especially the larger steam loco's with many axes tend to run badly through the R1 bends and switches. This is caused by the limits in the rotation of the motorblocks and other wheel sections !
A friend of mine experienced this with PIKO stuff and even had to rebuild the rotation points of the motor blocks and front and aft wheels.