Cogwheel track vertical design

Gerard

Gerard

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I had a lot of locs and wagons not in daily use stored in my cellar in the empty spaces of my wine store.
This meant I could not enjoy the looks of all that beautifull LGB stuff.
So i decided to build 3 exposition layers with about 7,5 m. long double track, mounted against the windows of my garden room.
The floor space along the walls of this room serve as my in house station.
While the centre of the room is in use as a music studio. So far this works fine.

Now I am planning to build a cogwheel track in front of the tracks to reach the 3 levels using a cogwheel locomotive.
The levels are respectively at 0,9 - 1,3 - 1.7 m. height and each of them covers a 4m. long straight track connected to a 3.4 m. long curved track.
See picture.

The cogwheel track has to be as short as possible in order to keep enough track length available for recieving the cogwheel loc and 3 wagons with total length of about 1,5 m.
Can anybody help me with some knowledge about the design limits of cogwheel track?
I am not planning to use cogwheel track in the bends because that makes things even more complicated.
Question 1:
What is the max allowable traight slope? Is 45 degrees really possible when pushing max 3 wagons?

The overall horizontal length of the cogwheel section will mainly depend on the max allowable slope.
But it will also depend on the necessary length of the two end sections, where the track curves back to the horizontal plane.

Question 2:
What is the max vertical curvature at the start and the end of the straight cogwheel track section?
 

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Software Tools said:
For straight slope LGB says "We recommend a maximum grade of 15% for reliable operation on the rack."

A 15% grade = ~8.53 degrees = ~1 in 6.667
Click to expand...
Yes thats their advice, but that will be for a very long train. I am planning to use a very short train of max 2or 3 wagons.
 
I would go with LGB advice Gerard.

No more than 8 degrees, even for a short train and certainly no more than 3 wagons....
 
The other issue you have to contend with is the need to a gently curving run-up at top and bottom. The steeper your slope the longer this will need to be. I’ve used a series of short straights to tak advantage of the play in the fishplates. I’m considering whether using Massoth rail joiners might be better but that requires some experimentation and I have other priorities given that the current setup works with both my Ballenberg steamer and FO electric. Other forum members my have a view on this.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.
 
Thanks you all for the advice. I think i will change my plan and will not use a very steep cogwheel track.
Instead i'm know thinking of using a vertical lift made of 4 threaded ends with a fixed nut in each of the four corners of the elevator floor.
It is the same system used in 3-d printers. Has anyone made a train lift before?
 
Bruce Milligan had an article about an automated lift on his Switchcrafters website. It may be more complicated than you need. He is out of business now (which is a great loss) and it doesn't appear to be available elsewhere on the web. I have a copy of the article and will send it to you at your email address if you will send me a PM with the address. It is copyrighted but doubt that Bruce would mind if I send a copy just to you for your personal use (as fair use and all that.)
 
Software Tools said:
For straight slope LGB says "We recommend a maximum grade of 15% for reliable operation on the rack."

A 15% grade = ~8.53 degrees = ~1 in 6.667
Click to expand...
When did LGB (ok Marklin) change this advise from 25% (25cm Rise over 100cm Run) ? when things started going wrong and complaints happened and to shift responsivity and corporate action ? 15% (15cm Rise over 100cm Run) is what most non rack, powerful double motor locos will do. This seams to only be on LGB steam Rack locos (probably often run as a pulling train and not as a Pull/push behind the train to put the weight/control on the downwards slope at all times, as is with all real cog railways)

My Manuel for my SchB says 25% to quote:

"Rack Operation: LGB rack locomotives can be used on rack sections and on regular “adhesion” sections.• Avoid grades steeper than 25%.•" ( page 10 HERE)

Gerard Gerard , This could be achieve as below is the "advised rule" calculation . I think 1.5m would be fine if run very slowly. But you also need to think about a gradual "ease" into the rack slope

IDEAL: 0,9m - 1,3m (0.4m Rise) over 1.6M Run

lgbrack.jpg
 
Dicky, many thanks for your remarks. I've changed my plans and now go for a vertical lift of about 2m long trains by using a 2 m long "bridge" with 4 bolts at the corners that will be lifted by the rotation of 4 about 2m long threaded ends.
 
Gerard said:
Dicky, many thanks for your remarks. I've changed my plans and now go for a vertical lift of about 2m long trains by using a 2 m long "bridge" with 4 bolts at the corners that will be lifted by the rotation of 4 about 2m long threaded ends.
Click to expand...
look forward to seeing this, really like all the technical stuff.
 
The lift option has further developed into a 2.7m long lift using two steel chains and two counterweights.
About a month ago I asked in here for advice on lifting LGB trains.
Since then i made some progress in designing and building a lift together with my friend R. Kleinsteuber (RBK)
See the sketch below with the lift hanging just below a plateau. The lift is 2.7 meters long and U-shaped made from stainless steel and can lift a track from the floor level up to 3 higher levels of plateaus at the 0.9 / 1.2 /1.5 m levels close to the windows in my hobby garden house.
Each plateau is about 7 meters long of which more than half is 30 cm wide with two tracks on it and the other half is 15 cm wide carrying only one track. The 3 tracks are half way connected using an English Cross point with its 4th branche towards the track in the lift when the lift is at this level.
It is quite amazing how many tracks one can store using this type of lift and plateaus.
The view of the trains on the higher tracks are very rewarding since i had only track on the ground.
But the most interesting thing is that moving trains between these levels and moving them at one level alone looks like quite a puzzle but it appeared to me that all positions can be reached using the lift in position and clever up and down movement of the trains !

We are still in the building phase of this lift , see the photographs below.
I will keep you posted when it is ready!

Lift met 3 plateaus.jpgLift voor montage.jpgTreinenlift links+rechts A3.jpg
 
Over the years in varying location lifts have been seen by myself. Your startup is certainly heading along the right lines. This is just one option I have seen in HO on YT, others are out there.
 
Dunnyrail,
Interesting solution but there is one critical issue: the guiding construction is not stable when the masses on the lift are not spread evenly. With the lifting actuater in the middle pushing up the lift there is no balancing action that prevents the tilting of the lift. This can cause the lift to tilt over at one side causing hihg tensions on the guiding wheels which result in even more tilting of the lift. I experienced a dimilar effect with my lift having 4 guiding wheels on each lifting side. There was no space for any tilting of the lift, so i decided to skip the top wheels. Now the guuding wheels are all at the lift level and any tilting of the lift has no measurable effect on the guiding wheels.
 
Gerard said:
Dunnyrail,
Interesting solution but there is one critical issue: the guiding construction is not stable when the masses on the lift are not spread evenly. With the lifting actuater in the middle pushing up the lift there is no balancing action that prevents the tilting of the lift. This can cause the lift to tilt over at one side causing hihg tensions on the guiding wheels which result in even more tilting of the lift. I experienced a dimilar effect with my lift having 4 guiding wheels on each lifting side. There was no space for any tilting of the lift, so i decided to skip the top wheels. Now the guuding wheels are all at the lift level and any tilting of the lift has no measurable effect on the guiding wheels.
Click to expand...
There are lots of differing solutions to the lift issue, that was one there are others in YT. For our scale weight is a serious consideration by eventual law of illogicality there is always the chance that a few engines will be one end with none at the other and vic verc, a problem of weighty considerations.
 
dunnyrail said:
Over the years in varying location lifts have been seen by myself. Your startup is certainly heading along the right lines. This is just one option I have seen in HO on YT, others are out there.
Click to expand...
And some food for your thought, sensors to stop at the right position.
And i think at looking at a mechanical point of view two would be better and pair them.

My two cents. or rob your local bicycle dealer:cool::cool::cool::cool: dont forget your stopping sensors/positions....
 
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